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I'm not a huge fan of fruit leathers, but this turned out super good! And, really, you can't go wrong with blackberries, mint and rum.

Friday, September 17, 2010

Should women be punished for abortion?

The issue of abortion brings up many topics relative to environmentalism, human rights, women's rights, women's health, religion and a whole host of personal freedoms. Aside from the obvious issues pertaining to world population and the access to abortions, I wanted to bring up the problem with making abortions illegal.

Abortion is clearly an issue that divides this country with a good proportion of Americans believing that abortion should be illegal for a variety of personal, religious or ethical reasons. But, when asked, many anti-abortionists don't have a clear answer for how one should be punished for this crime.

In other words, let's say that abortion is made illegal, what should the penalty be for getting an abortion? Because history has shown that making abortions illegal doesn't stop abortions from happening. It just makes them less safe for the woman. And they will continue.

At a Libertyville anti-abortion demonstration, these people were questioned about their opinion as to how women should be punished if they have an illegal abortion and many of them didn't have an answer. Most felt that the woman shouldn't be punished, but the question was rightfully put to them that, if it's illegal, shouldn't they be punished?

What other crime of this supposed magnitude (particularly one where it is analogous to murder), or really any magnitude, goes without punishment? They didn't seem to think about this next, obvious step in making abortions illegal, and many of them had been involved in the anti-abortion movement for several years.

What about you? If you feel that abortions should be illegal, should women serve jail time? If so, how long? Should it be treated as murder? Life sentence or the death penalty?

And, if there is no penalty for obtaining an illegal abortion, then what's the point of making it illegal if there is no punishment?

45 comments:

tigerlily said...

What an interesting thought.

Personally I always thought it was the Dr. that would be punished, not the women. I never thought about ramifications for the woman.

Myself I think abortion should remain legal.

Anonymous said...

Honestly, it would depend on how it went down on the law books. If it actually Was called murder, then they'd have to treat it as such. I mean, that would be premeditated for sure. If they called it murder, but didn't punish it as such, a door would be opened for Other murder cases.

As far as I can tell, there IS no other label they Could give it. If ya say something is Wrong, then ya have to be prepared to say Why. What else would it be? What else Could it be?

If they make it illegal, that's what they'll have to call it. If that's what they have to call it, that's how they'll have to punish it. God help us if they do....

Surviving and thriving on pennies said...

I'm not against abortion but i'm also not for it. I understand people are not ready to have children but I also understand that if your not ready then you need to protect yourself.
But there are so many cases of women being raped and end up pregnant. What about those people who don't want to have a child with their rapist?
I don't think it should be illegal. There are just way too many things involved in this to make it illegal.

Summer said...

personally, I think it should be illegal to harass women trying to get their perfectly legal abortions. And the punishment should be forced to give up every personal choice and decision about their lives for 9 months. They shouldn't be able to so much as pick what cereal to eat for breakfast without a committee voting on it first.

Q said...

I think that's a great idea summer. It makes me sad that people are okay with belittling someone when they are so fragile, it is just inhumane.


I don't think abortions should be illegal. I think the whole process should be better monitored. Right from education about it to the doctors doing the procedure.

People have to get a screening to get certain sugeries done. Have a process people need to go through to have an abortion. It just makes sense to me.

knutty knitter said...

It really doesn't seem to be much of a problem here and there is councilling available to those wanting the procedure. It is all very tightly regulated but nothing to make a fuss about as accidents do happen despite the best laid plans - a cousin got pregnant because of a round of antibiotics for example. She was in the situation that an extra mouth to feed wasn't exactly welcome but would be dealt with. My point being that there must be that choice. And it must be a free choice.

I don't see any anti abortionists coming up with funds to support women and children either. They seem perfectly happy to make others have the unwanted children but then offer no support to enable those children to be brought up properly by their parents/parent.

BTW adoption isn't an answer either - I have a fair number of friends who are adopted and it just doesn't work well in most cases. This is not a result of lack of care or love but one of identity. There is an old saying that blood is thicker than water and from what I've seen that is unfortunately true. I think adoption should be used very sparingly as a backstop of last resort and even then stick to extended family if possible.

viv in nz

Bitts said...

My word, I was afraid to read the comment thread. Thank god it's reasonable! Of course abortion should be safe, legal and rare. Women who must have them are often punished enough -- by themselves, our culture, their families, their partners, their churches ... it's a shame all the way around.

Abortion is so often a bitter, wrenching thing -- punishment enough, in and of itself. But it is just as often the thing that saves a woman and allows her to go on to live a healthy, productive and satisfying life.

Nobody should ever be jailed for making that choice.

Aydan said...

I think abortion is a tragedy and shouldn't happen, but punishing the women who have them is neither just nor an effective way to lower the incidence. What about, for example, the father who walked out and can't be made to pay child support? Should he be punished for contributing to the situation? Or the parents who kicked the woman out when they found out she was pregnant? Or the legislators who slashed the budget for government-subsidized daycare so single mothers now have the choice between child neglect and starving? Or the town residents who denigrate single mothers? Obviously these are lesser contributions, but no decision is made in a vacuum.

I am, as a scientist, ideologically pro-life, but I don't see the pro-life movement doing very many helpful things at the moment. I wish the people protesting outside of abortion clinics would start a fund for supporting pregnant women who want to keep their children but don't have the money.

Kate said...

Not criticizing any of the commenters here, but it's interesting to note that you haven't gotten a single answer to your question from anyone identifying themselves as anti-abortion. I wonder if you will. People are willing to kill doctors who perform abortions, so clearly some do think it merits punishment.

Olivia said...

Brilliant question!!

Women I know who have had abortions do a good enough job of "punishing" themselves.To do anything more would be unspeakably cruel. I can't imagine ever having an abortion myself but I can't imagine making that decision for anyone else either.

Knutty Knitter: It's sad that your adopted friends have not had good experiences. I have adopted friends and adopted cousins and I can honestly say that these all turned out well. Some of them have found their "birth" parents but still consider their adoptive families their "real families." Several are very grateful, in fact, that they had the opportunity to grow up in their adoptive families rather than their birth families. I'm sure there are sad cases but there are sad cases in all sorts of families.

Brad K. said...

Anonymous 9:34,

First - about law. I could make a case that abortion might be considered manslaughter, not murder. The intent of an abortion is to address needs of the community, the mother, the family. That the fetus ceases to live could be considered an after-effect, in law. I know that doesn't satisfy those morally opposed, but I could see a law be written that way.

I could also, for the same reasons, see it being written and involuntary manslaughter, or even reckless endangerment.

My preference would be what Bitts said: Safe, legal, and rare.

I clearly remember when abortion was made legal - to save women's lives. The varied illegal practices of abortion at the time seemed in line with occurrences in other populations around the world - and varied from unsafe to deadly to safe enough for some. Remember the dancer in Dirty Dancing that suffered so from her experience?

I think if we see more difficult economic times ahead, from Peak Oil and other disasters, like what has been happening in Washington, D.C., that this question will become more relevant than even today. I think the question of abortion will become a concern for communities and states. Recall that China made abortion a national issue, when it enforced a single-child rule on families (and some of President Obama's advisers have advocated such measures here in the US).

I fear that if abortion were to become illegal, it would go unreported except as vengeance and spite, that is, a misuse of the criminal code for personal gain by others. As before, the procedures would go underground, and it would be difficult to impossible to find recommended, safe, answers to that particular tough question. I fear that making abortion illegal would increase the number of lives ruined by unwanted pregnancy, and kill and maim more women.

Bitts got it right: Safe, legal, and rare. But the rare part we have to work on - to improve society and culture to make abortion a rare choice.

Anonymous said...

For the safety of women I hope that they would be legal. Abortions are not to be taken lightly, but lets keep it safe and legal. There are already countless social ramifications not to mention the toll it takes on your mental health. Do we really need to force them into the world of back alley doctors? And to pursue legal punishment afterword would diminish whatever self esteem and worth this person once had.

You make awesome observations!

psmflowerlady said...

My understanding is that it would not be illegal for a woman to have an abortion, but rather for a doctor to perform an abortion. To extend the thinking that the person harming the fetus is the criminal, then the woman, seeking the procedure would be complicit - right? Following that line of reasoning, would the convenience store cashier who sells cigarettes and alcohol to the pregnant woman be complicit in the harm to the fetus resultant from use of these substances? Who will enforce the mother not HARM the fetus by not drinking or smoking? How will enforcement of prenatal care occur? It's been proven that good prenatal care, abstinence from drugs, alcohol and cigarettes can result in a higher percentage of healthy live births - so if a mother chooses a lifestyle NOT conducive to live healthy birth, should she be punished? I know this is absurd, but it points to the dillema of where does one stop once one starts down that road of removing choices for ones own body from a person and making some of the choices "illegal". Years ago, I read the book, "The Handmaidens Tale" and it made me look at the whole issue differently - how society's involvement, even in a well-intentioned, "positive" way, in a woman's reproductive choices is not a black or white issue.

Anonymous said...

Knutty Knitter... My Mom is adopted as well as two of my dearest and best friends. I'm grateful that their parents chose to adopt them and I am grateful that these people (particularly my Mom of course!) are in my life.

Dawnee said...

I had an abortion and I don't believe women or providers should be punished. If you are anti-choice you are of the belief that women aren't capable of making decisions about their bodies, health, and futures. Anti-choice is anti-woman, plain and simple. As long as there have been humans, abortion has existed - so this debate never fails to amaze me. Check out: http://www.thedefendersmovie.com/index.html

swiggett said...

Strictly speaking, to answer your question: if abortion were made illegal, than one should have and enforce legal ramifications on both the recipient and provider of said illegal act.

I'm not exactly current with the legal consequences of being busted for buying pot, but see how these two situations can be related. The woman would be the buyer, the person actively interested in pursuing/engaging in the illegal act. The provider would be the seller, the party actively engaged in procuring and providing the illegal act/substance.

It could also be treated akin to prostitution, as it is the act itself that would be illegal.

Not sure what an appropriate punishment would be.

Partly b/c I don't think it should be illegal, so I can't come up with a punishment at all.

Lisa Under the Redwoods said...

I have a friend who found out she was pregnant a week or so after her husband beat her savagely (for the second time--her mother convinced her to back the first time. Ugh!)

The only way she saw to get away from him was to abort the baby so that she could get out of town. She had very little money at that time and was scared for her life.

She regretted the abortion but felt utterly trapped.

How do you punish someone like that? The only thing I see as reasonable would be state mandated therapy to help women get over the trauma of abortion and possible a reproductive education class in case some still didn't have the correct fact.

Katy said...

I have to agree with Swigget that if you are going to make the act of abortion illegal you have to punish all the partisipents.

But, I have no idea what kind of impossed punishment would be realistic as I think abortion should be legal.

To me the fact that these protesters can't come up with a just punishment is sad. How can you devote years to a cause without fully contemplating the ramifications of your actions?Scarry.

Jennifer O. said...

I can't imagine myself with a child.

It's been 11 years since I had an abortion. I am so thankful it was legal and safe. We had even used two forms of "protection" and still I ended up pregnant.

I have found out since that I have an extremely tilted uterus and could not carry a child to full term. I would have had a premature child my doctor said likely less than 6 months of age. My husband, after the abortion had a vasectomy, and I have since had a hysterectomy.

Many people focus on rape victims but I felt victim of my own body. I dealt with RH factor and lost 16 pounds and was hospitalized twice before we made the decision at 6 weeks to terminate the pregnancy.

I think the decision and hijacking of my body was punishment enough. I do not regret my choices and we are happily child free.

I think abortion should remain legal, I shudder to think of having an abortion in an unsafe place. Because as crunchy points out they will continue illegal or not.

Kim from Milwaukee said...

And to take it a step further, shouldn't the man who got her pregnant be punished as well??? Two parties are involved here.

I don't think the doctor should be punished at all, since he's only performing a service she requested, and hopefully it is done in such a way that allows her to heal and have children in the future.

Education is the answer, as well as more readily available birth control methods. Every teen should be made to squirm through learning how exactly conception happens, watch a birth, and watch an abortion. That is harsh, I know, but they need to see the reality of their choices. It kept me from having sex with anyone I didn't want to be the father of my children.

Bucky said...

knutty knitter, your comments on adoption were as offensive as they are wrong. As an adoptive parent, I could not love my son any less just because my sperm wasn't involved in his creation. I know a large number of adoptive families and I've never known a situation where an adopted child was any less than completely accepted as a part of the family.

As for your thought that "blood is thicker than water," let me just say that when I told my family I was gay many years ago, I was almost entirely disowned. My own father refused to speak to me or see me again. And to his dying day, he never did. So much for the thickness of blood.

I am glad that you have a loving and supportive biological family. How lucky you are. And how sad that the friends and family you know with adopted children have such small hearts and so little love in their lives. That breaks my heart for them and for you.

Bucky said...

As to the abortion question:

The anti-abortion crowd wants to outlaw abortion because they tell us they believe abortion is murder. If you believe that abortion is murder (I don't), then you must believe that we should punish women who have abortions as we punish all murders.

They need to go to jail for a very long time. At the very least until they are past their reproductive years so that they are no longer able to murder another fetus.

But the fact is that the large majority of people who want to make abortion illegal don't believe that abortion is murder. They want to put the people who perform abortions in jail, not the women who request them. This is somewhat akin to my hiring a hit-woman to murder my husband, and when we get caught, only the hit-woman is tried for murder and I get off without any punishment at all except for some social disapproval.

Also, if you really believe that abortion is murder, you can't make exceptions for rape or incest. I'd love someone to explain that exception to me. Because it wouldn't matter how conception occured. Murder is murder.

The only exceptions we make for taking another life is in self defense. So abortion if abortion is murder the only exception would be if the pregnancy threatened the life of the mother.

The fact is that the "pro-life" crowd isn't really pro-life, they are anti-women. They want to make abortion difficult to obtain (thus they only punish abortion providers) and they want to push it underground where it will be expensive and very dangerous.

They want to punish women for choosing to have sex. And particularly for enjoying it. That is why they make the rape/incest exception -- if you are raped you didn't choose to be a dirty filthy whore, so you are allowed to have an abortion.

Why is it that so many culture have such a fear and hatred of women's sexuality?

Bucky said...

A few interesting abortion facts:

* 35% of women will have an abortion by the age of 45. (Gonna need to build lots and lots of prisons!)

* 54% of women getting an abortion were using some form of birth control.

* 90% of abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/2005/06/28/abortionoverview.html

Robj98168 said...

Personally I think that no one should mess with a woman's right to chose what to do with her own body. Not the pope. Not the president. Certainly not congress.
And most of all that moron in Topeka- Fred Phelps.

Old Wise One said...

As a practicing Catholic I am opposed to abortion. However, I don't appreciate other people pushing their religious beliefs on me and I will not push mine on them. Professionally I took an oath to uphold the constitution and abortion is constituionally legal, so professionally I can't stop it.

The most discusting thing I see about abortion is the way it is used as a political tool. I have dealt with fanatics from both sides. The Pro-Life fanatics have some of the most disfunctional families you will ever see. I was at a retreat when someone asked a Priest what was the most evil. When the Priest said holocust the questioner was livid he did not say abortion. I was on the Priest side. As the question was asked, I knew where it was headed, but I was thinking in 25 years law enforcement, abortion is just small speck on my radar of evil I have seen.

I might be in trouble with the Pope but so be it.

Mike
Baton Rouge

Jane said...

Legal, informed and hopefully rare. Making abortion illegal did not work. It killed women.

It did not increase the number of children who were put-up for adoption thus allowing childless couples the ability to have a family.

I had my baby eight months ago and can't imagine life without her but I also can't imagine carrying a child to term who was unwanted for the thousands of reasons why women have abortions.

If she had not been some a welcome and blessed surprise after YEARS of infertility I would not have; gone off caffeine, alcohol, been pretty vicious with anyone smoking remotely near me, read everything I could about what and what not to do...

I would not have gotten the firecracker of a kiddo that I have now (who is momentarily asleep).

Canada, where I live, has embarrassingly decided to NOT support any international medical efforts that have to do with abortion.

I'm a proud Canadian but mortified that this sort of moral judgement is being propagated by our ruling (minority not a majority) government.

Frazzalicious said...

Abortion is murder and thus should be punished accordingly. Yes, it will continue to happen, just like all illegal activity, making that argument null and ridiculous.

Anyone who murders a pregnant woman gets two counts of murder, yet a woman can legally kill her own child? That just doesn't fly with me.

Both the mother and doctor performing the abortion should be held to murder charges and penalties to the full extent of the law.

Also, partial birth abortion should be held as a particularly heinous crime. Think about it - this is the idea that it's ok to cut a baby's skull open and suck out its brain as long as the feet aren't yet delivered? It makes me want to vomit - on the sick doctors who perform this AND the mothers who allow it! We provide rather harsh punishment for people who mistreat DOGS, yet people who kill infants are exercising their "rights". This is lunacy, people. Yes, it is your body. Maybe you should take some responsibility for it BEFORE you decide to engage in acts known to cause these 'dreaded' pregnancies!

equa yona(Big Bear) said...

@Frazzalilicious-or as I would call you-"fuckingvicious". You are the warped and evil sort who would have been burning elderly herbalists as witches in the dark ages. You know nothing about late term abortions except what your robot masters program into your tiny, gullible mind. You are, in a word, pathetic.
Gee, hope I wasn't too harsh.

koolchicken said...

I'm pro-life myself and believe abortion should be a crime. I think it should be allowable in cases or rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother. I think that anyone preforming an abortion or receiving one outside of these conditions should be punished. I do support birth control though and think it should be made more widely available, and that pharmacists should be forced to dispense it. I have been on the pill for seven years and have never gotten pregnant. It really infuriates me when people say things like "I didn't know that drug interfered with the pill" EDUCATE YOURSELF! I don't think a "quick fix" is okay for people who cant be bothered to read instructions.

As for adoption, I think its great if you have thousands of dollars sitting around. There needs to be easier access to kids in need of adoption in this country. I'm sick of hearing how much it costs to adopt a child in this county. How much does it cost to keep them in foster/group homes from the age of three to eighteen? I think that money would be better spent on court costs to get these kids into loving homes. Maybe then we wouldn't see so many people going the IVF route.

Bucky said...

koolchicken:

You didn't tell us WHY you think abortion should be a crime? I would be interested to know. I could be wrong, but you seem to be one of those people that just wants to punish someone for having sex. You would allow abortion in the case of rape/incest. Which makes no sense if you are, in fact, "pro-life" as you state. Just because the mother was raped doesn't make the fetus any less of a "life."

You show your hand when you tell us that abortion should be a "quick fix" for people who "can't be bothered to read instructions." WOW. So, you seem to think that if you are stupid enough to have sex and get pregnant then you deserve what you get. I find it odd that you think people who aren't smart enough to read instructions are smart enough to raise a child -- one of the most difficult jobs there is.

Using a child as punishment is a twisted form of morality as far as I am concerned.

Also, koolchicken, you didn't answer the question that Crunchy asked -- and that every "pro-life" person needs to answer: what punishment should women who seek/have an abortion suffer?

As for your adoption comments, please follow your own advice and EDUCATE YOURSELF! Adoption is only expensive is you are demanding a newborn white baby. If you just want to be a parent there are a hundred thousand children in this country in foster care waiting to be adopted into a loving family. And every state will pay 100 percent of the cost of adoption. Further, the state/federal govt will pay 100 percent of healthcare costs until the child turns 18.

There are some minimal costs associated with adopting through the State system. In Texas, you are required to become a licensed foster care parent which costs a few hundred dollars and a small investment of time. But if you can't afford a couple of hundred bucks and a few hours on the weekend for a month or two, then you aren't ready to be a parent.

koolchicken said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
koolchicken said...

Bucky:

To answer the main question, I think there should be jail time, and or a fine attached to anyone involved in an abortion. That seems to be the prescribed punishment for most crimes, everything from driving under the influence to murder so I can't imagine lawmakers creating something new.

For rape or incest, forcing a woman to have her body hijacked for someone else's crime is wrong. As long as the woman is willing to press charges against her attacker she should be allowed to end what it basically a continued assault.

I don't think a child should be a punishment. I do think that if you can't be bothered to read the information that comes with every pack of birth control pills, condoms, spermicide, etc. then you shouldn't have sex. I have a latex allergy, and it says right on the box such condoms are not effective in preventing pregnancy or std's so I take the pill. If I have to be on a med that conflicts with it I do not have sex for the rest of the month, abstinence never killed anyone. So yeah, if you can't follow simple directions don't have sex.

As for adoption, what you say simply isn't true. There is as much demand for bi-racial babies as there is for white ones. My friend shelled out $40,000 (hispanic baby) only to have the mother change her mind. My Aunt and Uncle tried the State system but gave up. It was available only if you wanted a special needs child. They actually wanted a child with down syndrome, autism, etc.. Instead, after investing considerable time and effort and money they discovered the children available were mostly suffering from attachment disorders and known to be violent. And they just couldn't bring a child into their home that might hurt their current children (1 with autism).

As for your comments about health care, who do you think is paying for that? Do you really think its fine for these kids to sit in foster homes cause the government will pick up the tab? I assure you, the state doesn't pay for these kids- tax payers do.

Bucky said...

koolchicken:

Thanks for the response.

I'm still at a loss to understand why you think abortion should be illegal in the first place?

koolchicken said...

Bucky:

You're welcome.

And why do I think abortion should be made illegal? For me it's a combination of things. I believe it's killing a human life, its not even so much tied to religion for me. I could not fathom the idea of killing an adult so why is it different for a baby, even if it's too young to live outside the mother?

It might be hard to understand my reasoning for some people, but I have a hard time understanding those who will have sex with someone they don't want to have a child with.

For the record I am all for the pill, condoms, implants, and the morning after pill as a last resort. I just think with all of these choices abortion is so unnecessary it crosses a real line. Babies come from sex, this isn't new information. If you really cant have a baby [whatever the reason] don't have sex. And I'm not saying you have to forgo all sexual contact. Just don't have actual intercourse without remembering every time you have sex is another chance to become pregnant.

Bucky said...

koolchicken:

"As for your comments about health care, who do you think is paying for that? ... I assure you, the state doesn't pay for these kids- tax payers do."

I think since about the second or third grade we all understood that when we talk about the government paying for something we understand that money for the government comes from taxpayers. But it is correct to say that "the state pays" because the state is providing the funds. Individual tax payers aren't writing checks to health insurance companies to cover the health care costs of a specific child in foster care.

Do you really think its fine for these kids to sit in foster homes cause the government will pick up the tab?

Huh? I'm at a loss to understand what you are accusing me of and what you are obviously angry about? I don't want any child to have to be in the foster care system. I wish that every baby was wanted. I wish that every parent was capable. And when that isn't the case, I wish that every child could find a loving adoptive home.

Kids are not just "sitting" around in foster care because they are somehow lazy and know that "the government will pick up the tab." Kids are in foster care because they had the great misfortune to be born to parents who were unable or unwilling to take care them. They aren't living the high life in foster care on the taxpayer's dime.

For the record, I am PRO abortion. I don't want the world to be filled with unwanted children "sitting in foster care" spending all that TeaBagging taxpayer money. You are the one that wants to outlaw abortion and increase that sad situation.

Bucky said...

Sorry to anyone still reading for monopolizing the conversation. Would love to hear from the rest of you.

To koolchicken:

I'm still confused about your thoughts on why abortion should be illegal in some instances and legal in others.

I greatly respect your support for making contraception readily available. A large chunk of the "pro-life" movement is also anti-contraception in any form. Bravo to you. Seriously, I think that is really great. And rare in the "pro-life" movement which is largely anti- contraception and sex education.

From what you have written, I understand that you use contraception and understand the risks and responsibilities of sexual activity. You seem like a responsible adult.

But when it comes to your thoughts on abortion, you lose me completely. You say you "believe it's killing a human life." I thoroughly disagree, but I respect that point of view.

I respect that point of view if you are at least even a little consistent. Unfortunately, you aren't. You think that abortion is murder ("killing a human life" = MURDER). Yet you also think that murder is okay if a woman was raped because not being allowed to abort the pregnancy is "basically a continued assault."

Sorry, but no. Being pregnant from your rapist is not a "continued assault." Your life is no longer under any threat. The only assault you are under is emotional distress. Horrible. I am compltely sympathetic. And as a proponent of abortion, I want a woman to be able to have a choice of how she manages that emotional assault. (Remember that I don't consider abortion murder.)

But when it comes to the LAW, we don't get to MURDER someone just because we are emotionally upset. Battered women don't get to make appointments to murder their abusive husbands just because they are emotionally upset. We don't get to murder our elderly parent just because their very poor health is greatly distressing to us.

So your "continued assualt" theory just doesn't fly.

You just want to punish people for not being as responsible about sex as you think they should be.

Unfortunately, the people that are most punished are the unwanted children you want to force women to have.

How lucky that you've never had a condom break. How great that you never were overwhelmed by raging teenage hormones and the seductive words of horny boy telling you that he loved you.

What a charmed life.

In the real world, unwanted pregnancies happen. Sometimes through recklessness. Sometimes by accident.

No matter.

And unwanted child is an unwanted child. And it costs lots and lots of TeaBagger tax dollars.

Bucky said...

Let me just say that I find it odd that on this forum a gay man is the strongest advocate for a woman's right to choose.

An unwanted pregnancy isn't anything that I've ever had to worry about.

Yet I am a fierce advocate for abortion as an option for women.

How sad that young women today are indifferent to their rights. Rights that have been hard fought and hard won.

Sad and shameful.

You pro-choice women need to stop and ask yourselves why it is that some homo is the loudest voice for your rights.

I don't have a dog in this hunt.

Mud Mama said...

I'm prochoice but personally against abortion. I think it has physical emotional and social ramifications that are ignored by many pro choice activists because there's a fear that admitting to them gives a foothold to the opposition.

I expect if abortion were made illegal that it would be health care providers who faced repercussions, not women. This is why the extremists in the right to life movement have focussed on threatening and killing doctors, not women who admit to having had abortions. If you scare enough doctors away from doing the procedure you have accomplished what you really want - to make access incredibly difficult.

You want to see the abortion rate drop in the Us? Do two things - treat sex as a normal day to day thing that you learn to self manage as a teen. Talk about it openly, provide condoms and other forms of safe effective birth control. Allow kids to have sex at home in their beds instead of covertly where forgetting protection lets them pretend that they were carried away in the moment and didn't mean to have sex. This is why places like the Netherlands and Germany and France have much lower accidental pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, and lower STD infection rates.

Second, keep abortion legal. But treat it holistically. Provide after care support and counselling to women who have made this choice. Allow them to grieve if need be. The clinic in Montreal did a pilot project on this (not sure if it's still going on) and they drastically cut their repeat abortion rate by acknowledging and tending to the conflicting feeling women have about terminating a pregnancy.

JulieH said...

I think this is a disturbing question. It could encourage pro-lifers to start thinking-hey, yeah, we should punish the woman! If men got pregnant, as they say, it would be a whole 'nother story. Why are we going here on this site? I'm pro-choice; worked at a clinic in Boston during the John Salvi shootings-in fact, I was working that day at a clinic one mile away. Let's not add any more drama and trauma to this. You wouldn't believe the diversity of patients (including a clinic protestor!) and their situations. It is not for me-or anyone else not directly involved-to judge. There will always be abortion-whether it's safe and legal or not-let's move on!

Crunchy Chicken said...

JulieH - I'm discussing this on this site because it has direct relevance to population and population control which all have environmental consequences.

For those who believe abortion is murder and want to make it illegal, it's important to go the next step and consider what the punishment should be?

It's a sticky question and, as you can see, few pro-lifers have an answer to it. I'm not asking people to defend their stance on abortion (either for or against), just consider what the consequences should be if it were to be made illegal and whether or not it, logically and consistently, makes sense.

It's real easy to say you want to make it illegal, it's another to vote for putting potential mothers on death row or given a life sentence or whatever the jail time should be for murder/manslaughter.

Greenpa said...

My standard diatribe on this question; which is, actually, identical to "gay marriage":

I continue to be astonished that the non-radical types involved in this discussion continue to MISS THE POINT.

The entire fight is not a "culture war"- it is a case of Religious Assault And Battery. Which, if you recall, is very specifically forbidden by our Constitution, and is usually considered one of our most treasured rights; the right to NOT have ANY religious group force us to dance to their tune.

And that's exactly what is going on. Various groups BELIEVE – as a matter of their religion only; since there are NO accepted scientific facts involved, that abortion is – evil. And they are pushing to write their beliefs into law.

They're even saying sometimes that the treasured freedom of religion therefore requires that THEIR beliefs be respected. Such a warped view is – astonishing. The law; the Constitution, specifically states no religion is allowed to dictate law; or belief.
Forget the human rights arguments; they don't work.
This IS a matter of Freedom of Religion. This is America, yes?

You MAY NOT tell me what to believe.

It's EXACTLY the same thing as if the Hasids and Mormons got together and forced everyone to wear tassels on their underwear. After all – it's in the Bible.

The punishment question is a good one; and helps bring some of the absurdities here into focus.

Robj98168 said...

Thank You Greenpa. I agree with you 100%.

knutty knitter said...

For the record I did not say that adoption was a bad thing - I simply said that even a loving home can fail to understand the mentality of a child from a different set of dna.

Greenpa - thankyou :)

viv in nz

Anonymous said...

So, oh anti-choice people here, what about a woman who discover (not in time for an "early" abortion) that the fetus she carries has Tay-Sachs disease? Or another disease or deformity that's incompatible with life? Or, for that matter, one that dies in utero?

Are you saying that she must carry to term a dead fetus? Or one that will be born as a healthy-looking baby and then die a gruesome, degenerating death over the next year or two? Or one that she knows will die at birth?

Anonymous said...

AS for abortions, I still think women should have a right to what happens to their bodies. And as for those against it and do the marches, I think they should sign up to be foster parents, and/or adoptive parents to all these children that are stuck in these programs, without anyone being there for them. Or for the babies that are born with a lot of problems, who also end up in the previous two programs, without a waiting list of people wanting them too.

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