Comments on Crunchy Chicken: Depletion & Abundance discussion post - Part One

just checked back in on Crunchy Chicken today for ...

2008-11-01T23:55:00.000-07:00

just checked back in on Crunchy Chicken today for the first time in months...and found this book discussion.

Now that I have read the first dscussion and have taken a look at Riot For Austerity maybe I did the right thing NOT ordering the book tonight? I am well over my comsumer goods limit for the yaar if I am to take the 90% reduction to heart.

It was interesting to check out the seven categories for reduction and see where my household (2 retired adults)is doing really well having a small footprint and where we are Comsuming Americans.

We are almost perfect in the garbage and food categories. (I am a compulsive use it up, recycle, compost type.) This year we slipped over the eccentric edge food wise into being locavores. We signed up for a veg share from a local farm and bought a side of beef from a local rancher. I hardly go to the grocery store anymore. Milk, butter, olive oil, nuts, a little dried fruit and grains. I was even able to buy several varieties of dried beans at the farmers market the past year!

We are also nearly perfect in the heating fuel category as we don't have central heat or A/C. Most of our wood comes from own deadfall trees. The past two years we have bought a little local firewood which is mostly in the acceptable carbon consumption category. We are in a particularly mild micro climate in the San Francisco Bay area so this isn't as grim as it sounds, having no central climate control.

We don't buy a lot of stuff anymore so we are doing better than average on consumables. I haven't been keeping my household budget in such a way that this is easy to seperate out from food. But I think we are much closer to 50% than 90% below average.

re Electricity and water and gasoline usage we are pretty close to the norm for consumption. And it will be hard to make significant changes in any of these. As in it would feel like a sacrifice where being a food locavore seems more like a luxury.

We live a little way out of town. It is a 12-14 mile round trip on a bike to go to the library or the grocery store so I don't use my bike for errands very often. Mostly I just postpone and bundle errands into one or two trips a week. Even so what with errands, shopping, socializing with friends and driving vacations we never get our mileage below 10,000-12,000 per car (per driver). We are driving about as much as we did pre-retirement...isn't that interesting?

I have been putting our electrical usage into a spreadsheet for years now and we seem to run about 7,000-8,000 kw per year. We are already doing all the easy savings so unless we invest in solar panels...and does that count since it costs resources to build and install them?

We share water well and nothing is metered. I am sure that we are at best only half of average American consumption. I think we probably average one load of laundry, two showers and one run of the dishwasher per day.

Looking back...I think where we are doing well on the Riot4Austerity front is in places where being frugal seems more like a luxury than a sacrifice. Having less stuff means less to fret over buying, storing, using, getting rid of when it fails. Eating fresh and local and mostly home cooked meals is a luxury and a blessing. And just by doing those two things we simply don't generate much trash. Three out of seven without trying!

interesting topic in these interesting times..thanks!

CycleCrone

To all the people who think culture change has to ...

2008-10-17T22:24:00.000-07:00

To all the people who think culture change has to preceded legal change, just think of all the things we have changed in response to regulation over just the last generation.

Seatbelt use. Car seats. Mainstreaming of kids with disabilities. Stopping the growth of the hole in the ozone layer. Rebuilding wolf populations. No more rivers catching on fire. In all of those, culture followed law - seatbelt use is *still* climbing, for example, after years and years of legal enforcement.

There's a phrase I learned today in a history of the suburbs (Delores Hayden's excellent "Building Suburbia", 2004). "Sewer socialism". That is what 19th Century people learned from cholera and other waterborne diseases - some things are public problems that can only be dealt with by fixing the underlying infrastructure - taxing people, using the money to do what needs to be done, and having heavy consequences for those who won't learn the new ways of behaving.

It has to come from both directions; make running a car more expensive *and* build transit. Charge more for heat and electricity, *and* offer weatherproofing and conservation help, *and* regulate the utility companies into rewables.

We talk a lot about consumer choices, but those are constrained by industrial and retail choices. If nobody was making lead-painted plastic jewelry, you wouldn't have to waste brain power learnign that it's lead coated and deciding not to buy it.

I've been reading the book a little each night sin...

2008-10-16T16:18:00.000-07:00

I've been reading the book a little each night since I got it. I'm really enjoying it! I'm so inspired to do more to be independent, and it's really making me think about the future.

I haven't joined Riot for Austerity, but now I want to. Maybe this winter when there's less to do outside I'll get into it.

"Can you imagine a tax on heating oil in a place l...

2008-10-16T14:59:00.000-07:00

"Can you imagine a tax on heating oil in a place like Maine?"

I think it is important to remember than any carbon tax scheme also includes reductions in income tax so that overall a person is not laying out any more in taxes. I do think that this kind of thing will motivate people (who need monetary motivation, which is a lot of people) to use less fossil fuel. A carbon tax without a corresponding reduction in income tax will just piss people off, definitely.

@ leahbear: A fun book to see what it could really...

2008-10-16T09:16:00.000-07:00

@ leahbear: A fun book to see what it could really be like having to live a "simpler" life is: "See You In A Hundred Years: Four Seasons In Forgotten America," by Logan Ward.

Although I love CO, if I had to live this lifestyle I'd move back to SW VA because it's far to arid in here to do any real farming without irrigation!

diana

I think that it absolutely needs to be within the ...

2008-10-15T16:40:00.000-07:00

I think that it absolutely needs to be within the community. Quite frankly, I would starve otherwise (can't grow stuff and am limited in how much heavy lifting I can do if I am to be at all useful). On the other hand, I can bake, preserve food, repair and make clothing, etc.

I think it is also really good to try and do these within the context of the larger community are current economy. I am not about to go live totally off grid or be out of the work force (even if I had a way to) just because I could. I want to stay and work within the economy to try and lead by example.

For example, I use maybe 30 or 40 gallons of water a day, which seems like a lot since I am in an apartment. But that is only 30% of the national average. And use less than 4 kwh of electricity a day. I run a business from my home, which accounts for at least half of both of these (probably more like 80% of the water), and yet I am below the average in every way. I think other businesses can do it too if they really want to too, and I don't want to step back from the economy to absolutely minimize my impact (giving up my business would do that).

@Leahbear:

You said "things like solar oven...

2008-10-15T14:51:00.000-07:00

@Leahbear:

You said "things like solar ovens and grain grinders... I'm afraid I'm one of those people who would die if Peak Oil catastrophe hit. I can't imagine having the time to grow my own grain, grind it, and then make my own bread. Perhaps if I could afford to not work, all of this would seem more doable, but right now it seems so daunting."

I think that makes sense, and hardly something to feel bad, or even surprised, about. I mean, going to work is part of our existing economy. You do your job, your employer gives you money. You take that money and give it to someone else in return for them growing your food.

If you were growing your own food, you'd have stepped out of that economy, into one of subsistence. More like "Little House on the Praire" - you couldn't see them finding time to work a 40 hour week on top of their largely subsistence lifestyle, could you!

Ideally, as our existing economy collapses, you would gradually move from one system to the other. Moving from working full time and buying everything, to working part time and growing/making/bartering some things, and maybe eventually growing/making/bartering most things and only working a little. Sharon appears to have made this transition, and I think it is a good goal for most of us. However, working full time PLUS growing/making/bartering most things is only ever going to work for the occasional hyper-energetic type!

Don't beat yourself up about it, but maybe see if you can gradually reduce your working and increase your independence/community interdependence. Although I understand that the US health care system tends to work against this, and I have no idea what the answer to that is.

--Heather from New Zealand.

I just received my copy of the book a couple of da...

2008-10-14T20:23:00.000-07:00

I just received my copy of the book a couple of days ago, and so I'm not quite this far along, but in answer to your questions:

1. We've already reduced our impact by a great deal and are working diligently to bring it down even further. If I could talk my husband into some even more "radical" changes, we'd be right about at 10% already :). And just for the record, it didn't cost much to affect the changes. Most of our reductions have actually saved us money, because we've stopped "using" so much. Like, I hang-dry my laundry, we don't eat out every other day anymore (which reduced both "consumption" and garbage), we turned down our thermostat, we reduced our driving. It's little things, but they've made a HUGE difference and the only thing it required was making a conscious decision to do those things.

2. Willingness is not really the issue in my situation. I'm "willing", but at the moment, my community is not able, as far as I can tell, to be dependable in a real emergency. I am willing to work within my "neighborhood", however, and to some degree, we already do.

3. No. Tax incentives will not help those who can not afford to pay for those cutesy "green" products, and consumption taxes would only harm those same people, effectively pricing many products and services out of their reach. Can you imagine a tax on heating oil in a place like Maine? The best thing the government could do is to improve the infrastructure (like a mass-transit system) so that we can all be lower impact.

Wow... Jimbolini23 such an eloquent way to say wha...

2008-10-14T19:28:00.000-07:00

Wow... Jimbolini23 such an eloquent way to say what I was thinking... As for my personal answers...
1. I am sitting on my bed, right now, fully dressed (minus shoes) with my feet buried in the covers, with my automatic heating pad (read: dog) on top of them since our house is hovering around 58 degrees. I try to minimize my impact as much as possible, but there are some major areas that I just can't manage as of yet (for example, I'm 'training' for a new job that is 4 miles away - at another location 28 miles away that's not along bus lines, and my schedule is so erratic that it's near-impossible to carpool...) My DH and I are planning on moving, depending primarily on selling our home and rental, we'll see how that goes... but we are planning to build as efficiently as we can, given the stringent county restrictions. Once we move, I hope to bike to work year-round, establish and maintain a year-round garden, and work on building community connections there. I'm not sure the Farmer's Market will be a weekly adventure, because of the distance from our land, but certainly a monthly one.

My DH is not as willing as I am to r4a, but every day he softens just a bit (I've finally got him reading _In_Defense_of_Food_, and he is actually enjoying it!). I think the hardest part about convincing him to r4a is going to be breaking down the stereotypes of living a low-energy lifestyle and dealing with how others might view our choices. I'm all for it, but then again, I wouldn't mind living in a one room shack with a dirt floor and hauling my own water... it actually sounds pretty nice... I'm rambling... sorry...

2. I have always felt that communities are more like families, and I would love to rely more on my community for daily life - I have visions of town meetings, bartering skills, and work bees... I am a very independent person (think of an overgrown 2 year old - 'I do it myself!')

3. I think the only way to change individual habits is by individual relationships and contacts - not by law. I also think the only way to change large organizations is by laws - either local/state/federal, or within the company - such as workers lobbying for change from within the company... That said, I don't think it's possible for political leadership to promote or enforce industry requirements/regulations simply because those they would be regulating are the ones who are funding their work... until we get back to a government BY the people, the corporate regulation will only come from within the companies. In a dream world, I'd love to see super-stringent environmental regulations as well as tons of "regulations" that advocate for responsible living - such as flexible hours for using the bus, telecommuting, etc.

I'd love to see companies have to realize the cost of their impact... but no "self-respecting" business person would ever not pass along their expenses to their customer - they'd rather up the cost than change their practices.

--Erika

1. I haven't signed up officially for riot 4 auste...

2008-10-14T19:27:00.000-07:00

1. I haven't signed up officially for riot 4 austerity but when I heard about it a few months ago I played with the numbers and estimate my house is already at the 8-12% anyway. I live in a mother in law basement appt with one other person so we don't know our exact usage but the house as a totals is low and it has currently 5 adults and 2 children living here. As for the person things I rarely buy goods or new things minus having had surgery recently and needing various medical equipment.

2. I eat out a lot but don't necessarily see that as a negative thing it helps me build community. I eat at small neighborhood places that try to source food locally and give back to the community. My favorite coffee shop donates all profit/tips to charity of the month. I think coming together as a community is key. If we work together we can save time, money, and be more environmentally friendly. I can't help garden much (physical health problems) but I watch a friends kids in exchange for goods from her garden. So community networks are key.

3. I think political leadership should be promoting more and also cracking down on industry. We need big system changes for transportation and personal changes i.e. both rapid public transit, walking more, more efficient cars, and biking more.

Leahbear - regarding finding the time, I think we ...

2008-10-14T15:50:00.000-07:00

Leahbear - regarding finding the time, I think we have time for whatever we make time for. I work a full time job and still manage to make bread, cook all our meals from scratch, garden, can food, grind grain, keep some small livestock, etc. I told a friend recently that I have absolutely NO idea how "normal" people spend their free time! ;-)

I should also point out that I do still have time to relax, read, visit friends, etc. I also didn't start this all at once - I started with one thing, and just kept adding more as I went along. You can, too - it won't take a lifetime. It will become natural to you faster than you think.

Well, my library hasn't gotten the book yet, but m...

2008-10-14T14:40:00.000-07:00

Well, my library hasn't gotten the book yet, but my feeling on #3 is that the government should stop promoting negative actions first. Instead of capping carbon, stop subsidizing the companies who produce the emmissions. I suspect this will fix half the problem right there. For instance, over the road trucking doesn't look nearly so profitable compared to trains without the subsidies.
I'd like to see the politicians make some sacrifices on the personal leval: they make a lot more money than we do. I'd like to see them getting paid just enough to break the welfare caps. (I bet their tunes would change mighty fast.)

1) I'm a part of the R4A group, but have only mana...

2008-10-14T14:13:00.000-07:00

1) I'm a part of the R4A group, but have only managed to reduce my consumption to about 60% of the North American Average. We're still lowering our consumption of electricity, natural gas, water and decreasing our garbage output as well as our consumer spending, but our diesel/gasoline consumption is still pretty high since we have no public transit here. Still plugging away at things though...

2) I'm a bit of a hermit so it's been tough to engage myself more in the community. But I know this is important so I am forcing myself to get more involved in such things.

3) I do think governments should start focusing more on frugality, and they should lead by example too. But I am also a firm believer in the necessity of things like carbon taxes. Here in Canada today we are having a Federal Election with this as one of the main issues. Unfortunately, I think our Bush-clone will probably be elected instead of the leader promoting the 'green tax shift.'

I finished reading Sharon's book this past weekend, and it is hands down one of the most important books I've ever read!

iffStarting with #3: I don't think any politician,...

2008-10-14T12:26:00.000-07:00

iffStarting with #3: I don't think any politician, who flies around in a private jet, has any business telling me to tighten my belt. That being said, a life of voluntary simplicity yields a life of earned contentment.

#2 Every summer, as my neighbors roar-up their power mowers, I quietly roll my push-reel mower around my lawn. Although it takes twice as long, no gasoline goes into my yard's care -- and I get nice shoulders --er, exercise -- too! :-) That is "action as activism". Of course, when I chop down a tree with my axe (instead of a chainsaw), my neighbors must think I'm a little nutty! But, such are the costs of 'living the lives we imagined'. (Paraphrasing Thoreau there.)

#1 "Hard times" are only hard for people addicted to 'easy times'. People miss the lights and noise from the TV during a power outage; but, if you can unplug everything (even the 'fridge) for a week, then a blackout becomes no big deal. (You either read a book, look at the stars, or whatever.)

Y'know? I think I'll go read Walden again....

Leahbear, reducing your impact should be cheaper t...

2008-10-14T12:03:00.000-07:00

Leahbear, reducing your impact should be cheaper than leaving it where it is.

Some things are just naturally cheaper - not buying stuff, not wasting food (that is, buying less but not eating less), not driving the car, not buying toxic cleaning products, reducing your heat/AC useage.

Some things save cash over the long term, even though they cost more up front - for instance, we spent $8000 on a new furnace and have been saving about $50/mo in natural gas. (I'm not recommending you get a new furnace - ours was 52 years old). I spent $700 on a bike and saved about $500 on bus fares, which means it would have paid itself off in about 2 years (including some maintenance and accessory costs) if someone hadn't stolen it this summer - but if you compare it against a car, which I don't own, it definitely saved me money.

If you buy new cloth napkins, a diva cup, and a new metal water bottler, you're spending money now to save later - though of course if you buy garage sale napkins and reuse an old Pom juice jar, you're saving money now *and* later.

1. Sadly, I'm not really sure how willing I...

2008-10-14T09:59:00.000-07:00

1. Sadly, I'm not really sure how willing I am to reduce my emissions by 90% - basically because it seems so expensive! I guess it would have to be a lifetime, gradual change. But if it's over a whole lifetime, am I really helping that much? And things like solar ovens and grain grinders... I'm afraid I'm one of those people who would die if Peak Oil catastrophe hit. I can't imagine having the time to grow my own grain, grind it, and then make my own bread. Perhaps if I could afford to not work, all of this would seem more doable, but right now it seems so daunting.

2. I love the idea of a community gardening effort! My community is just so un-communityish. Nobody really interacts. It's kind of sad. I also think it's basically the norm for the area that I live in. I'm a pretty shy person, so it's hard for me to just go up and knock on a neighbor's door... but maybe that's what I need to do. I would love to live in a community like Anonymous' from CO - maybe I should move! Is your community pretty tight-knit?

3. Both, I think! I definitely think they should at least promote personal sacrifice, but industry also really needs to be kept in check.

Thanks for such a great post! I'm not even reading the book, but it's still interesting to discuss!

We've never "officially" participated in the Riot,...

2008-10-14T09:41:00.000-07:00

We've never "officially" participated in the Riot, but we have been on a path of gradual reduction (in all areas) for some time now.

We recently moved to a new community, a rural one, and are trying to make inroads, which isn't easy. We are trying, but I fear it will take quite a while. We do still maintain connections we've made to others in other communities, though, so we're not entirely alone (just geographically alone).

I think that unless our political leaders call for personal sacrifice, virtually none will ever be made. I really think that's the ONLY way to get enough people on board. I've unfortunately developed the rather jaded view that most people, while they may have good intentions, are inherently lazy and simply won't make themselves make the effort.

Don't have the book yet but here are my answers to...

2008-10-14T09:25:00.000-07:00

Don't have the book yet but here are my answers to the discussion questions:
1. For years, people have jokingly(I think) asked me if I'm Amish. Because we hang our laundry out year round in CO. Because we don't have cable TV, wash dishes by hand and put the water on the yard. Because, though we can afford new, I look for used first-- for environmental reasons. I have been biking alot more to run errands and go to grocery store with friends to save gas. I look forward to finding more ways to do better.

2. I live in an amazing community, Fort Collins, CO. We have a Be Local movement, Local Living Economy project, Grow Foods not Lawns group. We're a Gold Bike city stiving to become platinum. Our city council just passed an urban hen ruling allowing people to have chickens(many already did) in the city limits. We have several farmers markets and CSAs. A well-attended Sustainable Living Fair, etc.

3. I think it would be great if the leadership promoted personal sacrifice as well as increased regulation on industry. Everyone should help in the effort.

I just checked my library account and the book is in transit from another CO library so I'll probably start reading it tonight after canvassing for Obama!

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

diana

1) I've done Riot for Austerity for over a year. ...

2008-10-14T07:43:00.000-07:00

1) I've done Riot for Austerity for over a year. I did get garbage and heating gas hovering around 10%. Most everything else, I've gotten down to around 30%, give or take.

2) I think relying no community is the key - for stability, a better quality of life, and sanity. For instance, if I share tools with my neighbors, we can have more tools. If my neighbor will teach my kid certain skills that I don't have or if we can share babysitting or transporation, then we're all better off. Now is the time to reach out and build community. Even if society doesn't collapse, it's nice to know your neighbors, to make connections, share things.

3. I'd like to see political leadership at least enable personal changes. For instance, my city recently passed residential curbside pickup of food wastes. Now people can compost all their organics and thereby reduce their garbage output. Water - especially here in the West - should be taxed or rates increased based on usage so people don't wash off their driveways and such. Politicians have trouble doing much of anything when it comes to the environment on a federal level so I think we need to push these changes on local levels.

Discussion Questions:
1. I have programmable th...

2008-10-14T06:28:00.000-07:00

Discussion Questions:
1. I have programmable thermostats in my house for winter. I've been knitting wool blankets for our beds and accumulating yard sale wool sweaters for my children. I think I used my a/c about 4 days total last summer. I hang my laundry year round - outside in summer, and in the basement in winter. I no longer have problems with low humidity in the house in winter! I have been bicycling and/or using the public bus MUCH more this year (don't have exact mileage figures yet for comparison). I run dehumidifiers in summer in the basement, but I recycle the water in my washer - a front loading model. I have a large vegetable garden, I can/freeze quite a bit from it, and have recently added some fruit trees and bushes. I'm raising rabbits for meat. I belong to my local CSA farm. I use canvas bags for groceries. My children and I wear lots of handmedowns and thrift store treasures.

2. My friends and I are discussing a collaborative gardening project for next spring - an hour or so a week, rotating houses, to get everyone a garden planted and maintained.

3. I think that political leadership should pull its head out of the sand and acknowledge that a) there's a problem, and b) with a collective will, people can accomplish a LOT. We just haven't been asked yet! Tax credits for solar panels are/have been available at least in Massachusetts, where I am - I think they should be promoted nationwide. Credit where due: my utilities have provided excellent reduction assistance, including an energy audit, CFL bulbs, and replacing my old refrigerator.

I feel somewhat helpless as I have very little mea...

2008-10-14T05:53:00.000-07:00

I feel somewhat helpless as I have very little means to make myself independent. I live in a condo with a tiny balcony. Yes we grew tomatoes this year but we didn't get much more than a few meals out of them. Maybe next year we will do better.

I don't think I will ever reduce my carbon impact by very much but I can certainly try by reducing my consumerism. I have my reuseable tote bags and I bought my 'new' pants at a thrift store. Baby steps are better than no steps I guess.

More sacrifice will never fly in modern USA, excep...

2008-10-14T05:25:00.000-07:00

More sacrifice will never fly in modern USA, except for a select few, until there is a crisis of Depression magnitude. We have been bred to hedonism for generations and the consumerist economy will make sure the next generation goes the same way.
Having said that, I think Sharon (and others as well)is akin to Jeremiah and other of the prophets. And as it says in the book, "Let those who have ears, hear."