Comments on Crunchy Chicken: Is air travel selfish?

I do absolutely think air travel is selfish. So ...

2009-09-15T08:27:40.862-07:00

I do absolutely think air travel is selfish.

So travelling is so beneficial to you, but how does that help Bangladesh when they are covered in water? If you really care about the planet, then if you really must travel, use transport other than air and stay there for a long period, don't use fly around here and there for a week. Always wanted to go to India? Fine, spend a year or two or more there, work for a development agency or something.

That being said, of course I am selfish too, and of course I sometimes choose to put my own desires ahead of the planet.

After not flying anywhere in 4 years, I flew twice this year. I do feel kind of bad about it, not so much the trip to see family as the professional conference I attended (totally optional). At least I don't drive a car though (over 30 years old and I've never had a license!).

Everyone is so quick to say that MY travel is justified, it's the OTHER people's travel that isn't, but is that really the truth? The truth is we are all trying to justify our actions, but are they really justifiable?

I wish this discussion had gone on longer. From w...

2009-06-01T05:38:57.954-07:00

I wish this discussion had gone on longer.

From what I've read, flights involve both CO2 and nitrous-something-or-other (can you tell I'm not a climatologist?) that is LOADS worse than CO2. Comparing it to a per mile car ride isn't the same. (Although yes, we should be trying to limit the use of all of them).

Is it selfish? Absolutely. I live in the UK, my entire family (apart from my husband) is in the US. I miss them a lot. We e-mail, we call, and I'm trying to go from flying home twice a year to once every two (and would do it even less if I didn't think they would freak out). I will not be flying for tourism anymore. Period. I simply can't justify that lack of respect--no matter how much I would gain from the experience.

There seems to be an awful lot of cognitive dissonance in this thread.

Your carbon footprint is your responsibility and it affects everyone in the world and flying greatly adds to it. That's the bottom line.

Bring back the zeppelin, I say....now there was a ...

2009-03-23T15:03:00.000-07:00

Bring back the zeppelin, I say....now there was a way to travel in style :)
By the way, did you know you can actually travel as a passenger on some freighter ships? I found a website devoted to that a while back.....so there are other options than flying.

Ah, Greenpa's comment about sail travel got me thi...

2009-03-23T12:20:00.000-07:00

Ah, Greenpa's comment about sail travel got me thinking about my childhood. When I was a teenager, my family and I lived on a sailboat and sailed around the world. How long did that take? 4 years. So, while we saw a LOT of the world (and how they really lived), it took a long time. Really, it was a matter of an entirely different lifestyle. While I LOVE Greenpa's argument for more sail travel, I see two problems: time (people already get bent out of shape if they miss their flight and are delayed for four hours, never mind an entire DAY or two, due to a bad weather) and location. There are already sailing vacations, but they're located in places that you have to fly to: the Caribbean, the South Pacific, the Med.

Haha, yeah, I was wondering if it was me you were ...

2009-03-22T09:20:00.000-07:00

Haha, yeah, I was wondering if it was me you were talking about -- but no, I definitely didn't go on a plane to Tunisia so I could see environmental damage up-close and in-person. And in fact, I was there with about 8 people for a group vacation and we specifically chose that country because it was smack in the middle of where everyone was currently living; so in a roundabout way, it involved the least amount of flying possible.

But personally, I agree with Oldnovice on this topic -- money from tourism is keeping a LOT of these poorer countries afloat, and the people there realize this. As well, no, there is no substitution for face-to-face interaction with another culture and landscape. Looking at a National Geographic mag won't do it; neither will reading book after book about a place. Plus, if you have friends or family living abroad, no amount of Skype video will replace an actual embrace. I will fully admit that air travel is selfish and destructive to the Earth, but it's something I'm going to do a couple times each year, so that's why I'm trying to do everything that I can in other parts of my life to treat the planet well.

I don't fly, have kids or eat meat (because these ...

2009-03-21T06:20:00.000-07:00

I don't fly, have kids or eat meat (because these things are hugely selfish!) and drive less than 10 miles per week. I made my life this way because it's the least harmful way I can think to live. I don't think I deserve more than that. By the way, anything (a square inch of dirt, sitting under a tree - think Buddha) can be transformative if one simply pays attention.

To Bucky:

International travel inspired me ...

2009-03-20T12:29:00.000-07:00

To Bucky:

International travel inspired me to become a civil engineer in water resources. The issues I saw traveling made me aware of people who have poor access to clean water and sanitation, and how they are suffering. It also showed me how people are suffering in poverty to supply western countries with commercial goods that we throw in landfills. I could see the effects of poor environmental stewardship, and also the effects of good environmental stewardship. I'm just an average mainstream middle class white person, who really needed to see it to understand and feel it, and do something about it. As a non-traditional 30-something student, I started a chapter of Engineers Without Borders at my school, and now every year for the past 3 years, 15+ students design engineering projects in developing countries for their senior design, then travel to implement them. They get a deeper understanding of their work as engineers, and of the need in the world. When their firm is consulted to do something like constructing infrastructure in a developing country, they will do it from a different place in their hearts. It changes everyone who participates, for the better.

My travels in developed countries helped me understand history and other cultures and my place in those. It's helped me talk with people I interact with about important issues, and discuss and deepen our perspectives. It helps me vote, it helps me volunteer, helps me make decisions on what I need and what I want, it helps me raise my child. And it has helped me get more out of life, and will be passed on to my offspring and others.

I have some things in common with previous posters...

2009-03-20T12:17:00.000-07:00

I have some things in common with previous posters, such as my travel being responsible for opening my eyes and mind and making me want to contribute in a positive way to the world, understanding in a tangible way the many many issues we face and create, and flying, but then using low carbon emission local transport, and next time we fly we'll do carbon offsets.

But, the bigger thing to me is the issue of quantification of environmental cost. I would like to see the costs of offseting all environmentally damaging things be collected; either taxed, or mandatory carbon/other offsets. People will then consume less (and maybe actually understand their impact), and their consumption will have less impact.

Rebekka, not that it's the same issue, but - if yo...

2009-03-20T10:06:00.000-07:00

Rebekka, not that it's the same issue, but - if you subtract out the long trips we take instead of flying, we drive our car about 10% as much as "average American". We bike or bus for commuting, and bike or walk for local errands about 75% of the time.

A wholistic look at your total carbon consumption is a pretty big project, so Crunchy breaks it down into individual issues. But really, we should all be working on all of them.

Interesting question Bucky. But truly how much o...

2009-03-20T06:16:00.000-07:00

Interesting question Bucky. But truly how much of anything we do is actually for someone else with no benefit to ourselves?

We lessen our carbon footprint simply for the rest of the world or because it also benefits us (or our children) too? We lessen the chemicals in our life because it only benefits the watershed and not because we aren't worried about the effects of chemicals on ourselves or our children? It is a rare person that would continually do something that has absolutely no benefit for themselves. Somewhere there is a benefit no matter how obscure.

But a small example... I went to Central America to learn to speak Spanish. I just wasn't learning it in my mostly English speaking environment. I could read and write but not speak. I succeeded in my goal. After coming back from my first trip, I volunteered for a year teaching Spanish speakers English and Citizenship so they could pass their Citizenship exam. I became a volunteer for many years that involved visiting a home bound elderly man once a week to provide companionship. He only spoke Spanish. Spanish speaking volunteers are apparently hard to find. But I didn't volunteer solely for the benefit of the people I helped and I won't pretend that I did. I got quite a bit out of that volunteer work even something as simple as someone to talk to on a lonely night.

I'm late to the party here. It's been interesting....

2009-03-20T03:38:00.000-07:00

I'm late to the party here. It's been interesting. People seem to feel strongly about their flying.

I agree that travel can be transformative. I just have a question for all of those that are trying to justify their pollution -- how has your travel made an actual difference in the world? Your travel has been of great benefit to you. What about to the rest of us?

I'm a huge fan of education, but at what price?

I live in Idaho and have family in Oregon and Alas...

2009-03-19T23:07:00.000-07:00

I live in Idaho and have family in Oregon and Alaska and some back East. We have always flown once a year or 2 years to see each other. I don't want to keep doing this. I wonder how much less carbon would be used by taking a train? Would that be a big difference?

As if there weren't enough debate going on here, m...

2009-03-19T21:53:00.000-07:00

As if there weren't enough debate going on here, my husband and I struggle with something. There is a program called Engineers Across Borders at his university. As engineers passionate about the environment and alternative energy, this group flies to poor countries to install solar panels at schools to provide them with light in places like Rowanda.

All those students flying across the world multiple times to provide an alternative energy solution... is that greener than the gas burning system the villages had before?

The subject of flying is so tricky. It's been really interesting reading how everyone feels. Sorry to throw in something new to the mix. I'm an American living in Europe... the effects of flying are on my mind all the time.
Katie

Interesting conversation, as usual. I tend to feel...

2009-03-19T18:55:00.000-07:00

Interesting conversation, as usual. I tend to feel less strongly about tourism vs visiting family -- since I have a 97 year old grandmother across the country. Seems like some distinction is in order. But I agree with you that it's degrees of rationalization. I also feel uncomfortable with carbon offsets -- I feel like emitting the carbon in the first place is something I should avoid - so offsets smack of guilt-relievers that don't impact the bottom line.

I was simply struck by how passionate people are a...

2009-03-19T18:29:00.000-07:00

I was simply struck by how passionate people are about this issue. I live under the flight pattern of the planes coming out and in of the airport. It is trying at times listening to the noise. It also makes me realize just how much people travel on planes. I'm hoping they come up with a more eco-friendly way to achieve air travel.

I'd add more right now, but I have to go make dinn...

2009-03-19T17:40:00.000-07:00

I'd add more right now, but I have to go make dinner...

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with e4 and what he's saying. Thanks for reading my mind and saving me time typing.

I have to say the tourism argument is problematic ...

2009-03-19T17:28:00.000-07:00

I have to say the tourism argument is problematic too. Pouring lots of money into a country so we can traipse around their wonders and buy their trinkets is all well and good until the economy falls apart and they're suddenly left with an economy built on a house of cards.

Besides, it's very easy to prove that more money doesn't make a place better or it's people happier. Examples are plentiful.

Rebekka - flawed logic. For one thing, I don't kno...

2009-03-19T17:05:00.000-07:00

Rebekka - flawed logic. For one thing, I don't know too many people who fly who don't also have cars. Not saying it doesn't happen, but most people who fly also drive.

Besides, driving 10 miles to the store or to a job is a whole lot different than flying a thousand miles to "better ourselves" as some people here propose.

Just to be clear, I'm not excluding myself from the realm of selfish acts. But let's not pretend that flying is somehow altruistic.

So I guess all you people who are saying air trave...

2009-03-19T16:45:00.000-07:00

So I guess all you people who are saying air travel is selfish are going to stop selfishly driving your cars?

Because travel by car is responsible for more than twice as much carbon as air travel.

Crunchy, we've managed to see a good bit of th...

2009-03-19T16:34:00.000-07:00

Crunchy, we've managed to see a good bit of the US without flying (not visit my brother in South America, though - not til the kiddo's a little older, I think.) Your Mexico trip sounds fabulous, and way more of a learning experience than flying to Cabo San Lucas for spring break (which some of my old coworkers did)

On an individual-trip basis, it's not a whole lot better to drive than to fly (we did the math, and the break-even point is 3 people in a recent-model Toyota Camry). But what I've noticed is that, since we have to take so much time for each trip we don't take as many (4-day drive to the Texas coast one year, 3 days to the Grand Canyon last year). We have friends who fly five or six times a year - Christmas, Thanksgiving, niece or nephew's birthday, and a few "couples getaway" weekends - on the same two weeks of vacation time.

When I was young, childless, and worked part-time, I did some train travel based on Amtrak's weekly special deals - $50 round trip, Chicago to Boston, one time. Without that flexibility, train trips are *way* more expensive, and I wouldn't take a toddler on a multi-day bus trip.

Aside from environmentalism, one of the problems I have with air travel is that it sucks away the middle-class business that makes buses safe & clean, and trains affordable. That degrades the bus & train infrastructure for people who don't have access to cheap hub cities for flights. My hometown has an airport because the Senator from there earmarks federal money for it; but it hasn't had a Greyhound station for about a decade, so the city has to cough up the money to have the (only) city bus drive an hour out to the highway to pick up Greyhound riders.

People's lives are different -if your family is spread across contintents, that's different than if you (like I did one year, a long time ago) saw "Fly to London or Edinborough for $299!" and went to the UK for a weekend. I do think we could pare out a lot of the casual flying without too much pain, and leave the carbon from important trips alone.

Instead of 'is it selfish', why not ask 'is it wor...

2009-03-19T15:53:00.001-07:00

Instead of 'is it selfish', why not ask 'is it worth the consequences'? Bangladeshi scientist Dr Atiq Rahman reckons that for every 10,000 tonnes CO2 emitted, a Bangladeshi family dies. The land on which they live and grown their food and the water that the drink become contaminated by salt and they die. He thinks, for every 10,000 tonnes *your* family emits, you should take in the Bangladeshi family *you* are displacing. You can read more about Bangladesh and Dr. Rahman's ideas here. He's not a quack - he's an IPCC scientist who's well-respected in UN circles.

For reference, the average American over an 85 year lifespan is responsible for emitting around 2000 tonnes of CO2 (taking 2003 data from here
). So, roughly speaking, every five Americans (or Kiwis) conducting 'business as usual' are displacing and probably inadvertantly killing a Bangladeshi family.

We can fly as much as we want, so long as we are prepared to take that family into our own homes. If we carry on as usual yet don't take them in, we are probably killing them. Is our flying/SUV/beef etc. *worth* the incovenience of having them in our homes, or their deaths if we don't?

It's a question I'm definitely asking myself as I make my choices.

--Heather from New Zealand

Actually, the comment was from another blog, not g...

2009-03-19T15:53:00.000-07:00

Actually, the comment was from another blog, not greenasathistle, just for the record.

I think it was greenasathistle.com...she just went...

2009-03-19T15:38:00.000-07:00

I think it was greenasathistle.com...she just went to Tunisia and was writing about it.

But onto your question. It's not an easy answer.

I don't see it entirely as a question of "do we have the right?" I see it also as a question of "Do we have the responsibility?"

On the one hand, in terms of "do we have the the right?" yes it is selfish. You can't really get around that.

On the other hand, in terms of "do we have the responbility?" Yes, we do. It's not only selfish, it's wise. First of all, Americans would be a lot better off to actually expose themselves to other cultures in the world, and understand that we are not the be all and the end all. Secondly, do you know how many people in so many regions of the world are entirely dependant on the dollars the get from affluent American and European tourists? If we were all to stop visiting these areas so as to not create the carbon output A LOT of people would suffer for that lost income.

I think the way to balance out the selfisihness that comes as a result of people assuming they "have the right" because they have the money vs. responsibilty to be educated about the world at large, and to share our wealth by being tourists in economies that depend on that money is to be the "right kind" of tourist.

Do things such as frequent businesses that are locally owned and which put their earnings back into their local economy, support individuals who use sustainable techniques...Don't do such things as go to an exocitic local and spend all of your time staying in a hotel owned by a multi-billion dollar international corporation and jet-skiing on top of already bleaching out coral reefs.

That's my over-simplified answer to a complex question.

Sharlene said: "But I also think there are alot mo...

2009-03-19T14:00:00.000-07:00

Sharlene said: "But I also think there are alot more harmful things to focus than air travel. If air travel and its pollutants is the worst thing we have to worry about then I would say we are doing very well as a planet."

That's exactly the point though. Air travel and its pollutants are about the worst way to travel, and most of that travel is unnecessary. To steal a quote from George Monbiot:
"...the climate impact of aeroplanes is not confined to the carbon they produce. They release several different kinds of gases and particles. Some of them cool the planet, others warm it. The overall impact, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, is a warming effect 2.7 times that of the carbon dioxide alone. .. (and)...aviation has been growing faster than any other source of greenhouse gasses...Unless something is done to stop this growth (in flying habits) aviation will overwhelm all the cuts we manage to make elsewhere."

I see a lot of rationalizing of air travel here. I see very little true justification.

I don't air travel is selfish. I do think using pr...

2009-03-19T13:10:00.000-07:00

I don't air travel is selfish. I do think using private planes to go from one place to another to save timecan be borderline selfish. Or perhaps flying for the sport of flying with no destination in mind. BUt I also think there are alot more harmful things to focus than air travel. If air travel and its pollutants is the worst thing we have to worry about then I would say we are doing very well as a planet.