Comments on Crunchy Chicken: The end of breastfeeding?

I BF all four of my kids, and all lost interest in...

2008-11-29T20:15:00.000-08:00

I BF all four of my kids, and all lost interest in nursing right around their first birthdays. I don't recall actually weaning any of them. I never had two nursing at the same time, not because of any decision on my part, that's just how it worked out.
I remember having lots of women tell me they would never be able to put up with the "inconvenience" of nursing. It still makes me laugh to think of it; so inconvenient to have the milk always ready, always clean, always the right temperature, always the right amount.
I always nursed my babies where ever I happened to be when they were ready. I was bashful about it in the beginning, but I always felt that part of what I wanted to accomplish, in addition to addressing my children's welfare, was to try and help people to understand that is, after all, what those breasts are there for-not they don't have other, more, shall we say, recreational uses in addition. While I never tried to be "in your face" about it, I figured anyone else's discomfort was their problem to deal with. I often have to put up with all kinds of public behavior that I'd rather not see, and none of that serves a purpose as important as feeding a baby.
Looking back, I'm kind of amazed that I was never asked to stop. I've known several women who have had that happen to them.
I've also known several women who would have BF but were discouraged from even trying by their husbands. I am very glad my husband was so supportive. I think you can stand up better to disapproval from extended family and society if you have the father's support, but it becomes very nearly impossible without it.
And finally, I will admit that although nursing did nothing to my libido one way or the other, my husband LOVED to see me breastfeeding the kids. He couldn't wait to take them to their crib as soon as their meal was over.

I've exclusively breastfeed my year old son and he...

2008-11-27T00:49:00.000-08:00

I've exclusively breastfeed my year old son and he shows no signs of slowing down. I hope I get the opportunity to tandem nurse. I love breastfeeding and I count my lucky stars that I was able to.

About nursing in public, I believe that a woman should be able to nurse however she wants to, even if it's not discreet. And this ties into the sexualization of breasts.

Quite frankly I've never found breasts to be that sexy. Yeah, they look good and they're fun to squeeze, but as far as being so sexual as to not be used is stupid. My legs are sexy, yet I use them to walk. My tush is pretty cute, but it's also nice to sit on. Why should I not use my breasts?

Luckily I have a stupendous husband who is so supportive of breastfeeding. He's never been jealous or mean about, and is actually super excited about the whole thing. He actually gets disappointed if he can't be there to defend my public nursing. And he's totally chill with extended nursing and co-sleeping. I think he has a future helping other fathers with their role in life.

There, Crunchy, I talked about sex and breasts.

I'm brestfeeding my 30 month-old daughter.
Cru...

2008-11-04T10:11:00.000-08:00

I'm brestfeeding my 30 month-old daughter.
Crunchy, the device (tube feeding) can be used with adopted babies... very useful.

Greenpa -

Ah, yes. I forgot that if I wan...

2008-11-02T12:34:00.000-08:00

Greenpa -

Ah, yes. I forgot that if I want to avoid being insulted I should only argue with folks that argue the facts, and avoid those who resort to ad hominem type attacks. But I had no idea when I started which type you were, so there you go.

So, if I know so very little, why is it you won't argue the facts with me, eh? You have not even answered the very very easiest of my questions, which is what do you sample? Foremilk? Hindmilk? Colostrum? At what point in time? This is a very basic question, and the entire solution you propose, and how it (won't) work depends on the answer.

If you want to learn about lactation (which is where I think you biggest lack of knowledge and education is in this) may I suggest "The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding" published by La Leche League or "The Breastfeeding Book" by Martha & William Sears. Both will give you a basic working knowledge of lactation. Reading through the Kellymom.com site might also help you learn about the very basics of lactation.

Oh, and please don't compare lactation to pissing in a cup. I realize you are working from a lack of knowledge here, but the complex variations in breastmilk composition over the course of a single nursing session are orders of magnitude above the simple dilution factor you have in urine samples. And what does other people being wrong about urine have to do with my being right about breastmilk?

I actually don't have any issues with wet nursing, and I am a milk donor, both formal and informal. I DON'T have a problem with milk sharing. I DO have a problem with folks that have absolutely no clue how a system works trying to 'fix' things. More often than not you just end up screwing things up even more.

-A

PS: By the way, bull has nothing to do with lactation, other than donating the semen. It's the cows that give the milk. :D

I'm a breastfeeding mommy and we had a difficult t...

2008-11-01T18:41:00.000-07:00

I'm a breastfeeding mommy and we had a difficult time in the beginning. However, I stuck with it and breastfed exclusively until 6 months and am still bfing him at 16 months. In addition to the health benefits, bfing also leads to less (or no) packaging waste and is an unbelievable money saver. I do think that the lack of support is the main reason women choose formula over breastfeeding.

Homebody: Bull.

Sorry you feel the exchang...

2008-11-01T13:34:00.000-07:00

Homebody: Bull.

Sorry you feel the exchange has become a bit rancorous- but if you don't like being "insulted" - perhaps you should avoid being insulting.

You do, indeed, have more science than I guessed. You have, however, much less than you need to be pontificating- and do not know it.

Don't feel too badly however; I've seen roomsful of MD's make identical mistakes; both in science, and in hubris.

Proof: "Oh, and by the way, a point in time test of woman's breastmilk tells you exactly NOTHING about whether or not she can nourish her baby. Even if you can get a sample."

Really? Is that why they take urine samples - at "a point in time"? And blood? Both fluids are every bit as variable as milk; in regard to circadian and many other rhythms. And yet- we have learned to gain valuable- even accurate- information that way. Lives are saved- repeatedly.

Your arguments are emotional. And exactly those of all people who oppose things that are new and different. It won't work because it's too hard, and can't be done.

Bull. Wet nurses have made a valuable contribution to child rearing for millennia, in many, if not all cultures. "difficult" for one, is lifesaving for another.

Look it up: historically, your objections are the same reasons backwards thinkers gave for why testing urine was a waste of time, and would never be widely instituted.

My mom always told me that if I didn't breastfeed ...

2008-11-01T11:51:00.000-07:00

My mom always told me that if I didn't breastfeed my kids, she would. Unfortunately, she wasn't around when I had them because I might have taken her up on that offer. ;)

My first pregnancy was twins. Luckily, they were full-term and decent enough in size to start breastfeeding immediately. That first two weeks of learning proper latching and the like was EXCRUCIATING, but I don't think I ever considered quitting. I was never comfortable nursing them both at the same time, so that created a bit of mayhem with one hungry baby screaming while I was trying to feed the other. It did get better though. Unfortunately, my milk started to wane when they hit about 9 months. I continued to breastfeed but also had to supplement them with formula for a couple of weeks while I bumped up my milk production and nutrition. I bawled like a crazy woman the first time I stuck a bottle in my son's mouth, and I was infinitely relieved when I was able to put the bottles away for good. Both of the twins weaned themselves at around 13 months.

Baby #3 was a nursing pro right away. She lost interest in the breast at about 9 months, but still latched on here and there until around 13 months again. After that, she wanted absolutely nothing to do with the breast. Even though they'd been weaned for quite awhile, when the twins saw me breastfeeding their little sister, they each asked if they could nurse too. I let each of them take a turn at my free breast, and after a very brief suckle, they both looked disgusted and declared they would NOT be doing that again! From that point on, they referred to my breast milk as "icky milk." LOL

Baby #4 will be born in March/April, and, of course, the plan is to breastfeed.

Pregnant with #2, still BF my 17mo old.
I rea...

2008-11-01T09:06:00.000-07:00

Pregnant with #2, still BF my 17mo old.
I read somewhere that the flame retardants used in children's pajamas is found in breastmilk..so I put my daughter to bed in sweatpants and long sleeves since birth. We did buy some Halo sleep sacks for last winter at the nifty thrifty hoping that the previous washings got most of it out.
Another concern of ours was the dioxins in diapers, so we use cloth as a back-up and have been ECing since 3 months. It is wonderful to not have a room of stinky diapers sitting around!

Greenpa - Actually, I would ask you to do what you...

2008-11-01T08:45:00.000-07:00

Greenpa - Actually, I would ask you to do what you are asking me to do, read my entire comment.

You said, and I quote, "it would be easy for a professional wet-nurse to feed the newborn for a little while, while the real mother "pumps and dumps", to get the toxins cleared out. Then real mom could jump back in, and breast-feed, without the worries- or the toxins."

As I clearly pointed out in my post, THIS IS NOT ***EASY*** IN THE LEAST.

And how do you test by the way? I mean, we have had the ability to test milk for toxins, as well as fat/protein/carbs, for many many years. But what do you test? Foremilk? Hindmilk? Colostrum? The woman's fat stores? The woman's breast tissue? I could write an entire page about each of these things, and why testing them won't tell you how much chemical exposure the baby is getting.

You intentionally insult me by saying "The toxins in the milk are serious; don't blow off the idea because you're wedded to breast feeding; read the rest of my comments here." and yet you have not replied to a single one of the real, actual, and DIFFICULT problems your solution posses. And I only scratched the surface, I could go on for two or three pages as to why it just won't work.

I actually DO understand chemicals, toxins, epidemiology, lactation in humans and other mammals, and a whole bunch of other things. Is breastfeeding great? Yes it is. But don't mistake me for some dewy eyed idealist with nary a scientific thought in her head just because I think your solution is completely unworkable given the realities of chemicals, toxins, epidemiology, and lactation in humans. My problems with your solution are based on cold hard facts.

Oh, and by the way, a point in time test of woman's breastmilk tells you exactly NOTHING about whether or not she can nourish her baby. Even if you can get a sample.

-A

I think I'm the only formula feeder here, and I mu...

2008-10-31T11:57:00.000-07:00

I think I'm the only formula feeder here, and I must live in the breastfeeding capital of the us. Seriously, I got flack for not nursing -- to the point were I was told that if I'd breastfeed my younger daughter would not have congenital skull malformation and that neither child would bond with me. (In fact, it's always near the top of the Top 10 reasons why I'm a bad mother.)

My older daughter arrived home at 10.5 months. I looked into inducing, and discovered that having never been pg, the best I could hope for was a trickle of breast milk while most of the feed was formula from a tube tape to my breast. I was going back to work in 2 weeks time, and a lot of the feedings would have to be from a bottle anyway. So, I bailed.

The second came home at 22 months, still not having mastered suck and swallow, and was spoon fed formula and thinned food.

Part of me is very thankful there wsa formula for them to be fed after they were surrendered. Another part of me know that they are doomed to grow up to be axe murderers (of course, since I've always worked Monday nights, the fact we don't eat dinner together that night means they are doomed to be drug addicts, too.)

The funny thing is, I actually support breastfeeding, and have no problems with people feeding their children in public, or anywere else. Both my daughters used to pretent to breastfeed their dolls, having seem friends babies.

But for the 4-5% of women who really can't breastfeed, we could do with a bit more support and a bit less of "The most loving thing you'll ever do for your child." I also think that people who say NOTHING will stop me from breastfeeding are setting themselves up for a nasty case of self-hatred if, God forbid, something happens, such as them ending up in separate hospitals, their milk drying up, and then not being able to restart. They will be able to love their children; their children will love them, and my own fears aside, chances are they will not grow up unable to love or nurture their own children.

And at this point, there are so many bad chemical everywhere, you might was well get the benefits from breastfeeding.

MEA

I did nurse both of my girls until both were about...

2008-10-31T11:44:00.000-07:00

I did nurse both of my girls until both were about a year old. I did not have much of a problem with it, I found it easy to start and wasn't the least bit embarrassed about it in public. There were a few times with my first that I had to white knuckle it until I found some nipple shields and unfortunately with both I suffered many months of yeast problems on my nipples. I would so highly encourage breast feeding if you can, there is just nothing like sitting there knowing that your body is making the nourishment for your beautiful child. Amazing.

Thank you so much for your comments about breastfe...

2008-10-31T11:08:00.000-07:00

Thank you so much for your comments about breastfeeding and it was really fun to read what everyone had to say. I love breastfeeding my 8-week old and make sure to do all that I can to keep the breastmilk as healthy as possible- clean with all-natural cleaners, don't drink or smoke, take my 100% natural supplements, including extra Omega Guard. Breastfeeding is great incentive for moms to be more careful and aware of their surroundings and how we are contributing to our environment.

Also, breastfeeding mothers need to be aware of all of the dangers of birth control for the baby!!!

Um, incidentally, I did NOT discuss all this with ...

2008-10-31T08:57:00.000-07:00

Um, incidentally, I did NOT discuss all this with Spice at the time. Why would I add to her worries? So, if she reads this, this will all be news to her that I was worrying.

Rosa: "Also, I think the racial/class dynamics of ...

2008-10-31T08:54:00.000-07:00

Rosa: "Also, I think the racial/class dynamics of wetnursing would be problematic. They certainly have been in the past."

Absolutely; with you all the way. Which is why I tried to suggest "professional" wet nurses. To me that means- trained, licensed. And respected.

I think it could be done, though it's sure not a given. For one thing, the wetnurse phenomenon is so nearly extinct in our current world, it should be possible to start over from scratch.

I was thinking, hoping, it could be done in conjunction with the training and licensing of midwives and doulas. You wouldn't be expected to hire a wetnurse for convenience (we could even try to generate some scorn for that path)- but for medical necessity; the doctor could prescribe it, perhaps.

All culturally very risky- and history is against us. Nothing new there!

This was something I did indeed worry about extensively with my current youngster. Spice was raised in one of the most toxic places in the USA - mining waste, heavy metals, mostly. Unlike organic toxins, the metals can be flushed out without lactation, usually with chelating treatments. But- those companies are just utterly careless of everything they do to the world, and I'll bet anything the mine waste pools where she played as a kid are swimming with PCBs the companies dumped there, too.

No options, for us. But I'd like others to be able to KNOW- ahead of time; and act. If we'd had a wetnurse available at the time; I might well have tried to do that. Even if the wet nurse was only providing half the nursing, and Spice was still nursing the baby- that would cut the exposure to toxins for the baby in half. That could be all the difference.

So far, Smidgen is a very robust, healthy, active, fabulous child. But it's the nature of the organic chemicals that we're talking about that they cause genetic "booby-traps" to develop; a slightly damaged cell line, which with one more insult, at any time in the future, could mean cancer. This is the reason why damage to an infant is more serious; they're growing. An insult to an adult may mean damage to one cell. In a child- that one damaged cell will likely divide, and generate 10 cells; or 100, in the adult; all with the same damage now- a much bigger target.

I'll worry about- down deep- forever, like any parent would.

I just think that the most important thing is a he...

2008-10-31T04:45:00.000-07:00

I just think that the most important thing is a healthy mommy. Of course, we as mommies want to do the very best for our child. But if we DON'T have the support of our families or medical communities, then it can be quite challenging. Such was the case when my daughter was born and we lived in a rural area. I asked the local hospital if they had a lactation consultant? Nearest one was 1.5 hours away. I called La Leche League on the phone but got either cut off or they were not helpful in diagnosing my problem (ended up our baby had reflux, never diagnosed, only figured it out after baby #3 had same symptoms and he got diagnosed). So, I hope to help moms who need support breastfeeding but MORE than that I hope to support moms who need to feel sane. If breastfeeding is causing more mental anguish than not breastfeeding, I think a mom should not feel bad about nourishing her baby in the best way she can, and by "best" I mean the way that does not escalate any PPD that may be present or make her family life any more hectic than it is already.

Also, on a side note, I would SURE appreciate it if, while in public, moms who breastfeed did so discreetly. Breastfeed wherever ya want - in a restaurant, in the mall, whatever - but also realize some folks don't want to see it. You can still have your rights to breastfeed in public without being all in my face about it. BTW I have breastfed all of my kids. In public too.

Ok, I'm denser than Greenpa - what are the sexual ...

2008-10-31T04:44:00.000-07:00

Ok, I'm denser than Greenpa - what are the sexual benefits of breastfeeding? My silence is because I have no freakin' idea what you are talking about.

As I said, I nursed for 8 straight years. Yes, my boobs got bigger - but since I was already a 40D before babies, going to a DD didn't really make me feel sexier. In fact, I remember calling up a friend and saying "Name two things on me that don't need to be any bigger! But they are!!" My husband didn't mind the size, but I'm just not sure that the increase from D to DD has the same effect as going, say, from A to B. One of those diminishing returns things.

As for the benefits in sex - can't think of any. Do you mean the part where I leaked milk during sex? Not one of my fetishes. I definitely did not want anyone sucking or grabbing at them during sex - when you pull them out and use them every 2 hours, the "Wow, someone else wants at my breasts" wasn't quite the thrill it might have been.

They were generally more sensitive, but not in a good way. I guess if my husband was into exhibitionism the fact that at the beginning, I nursed so constantly that I would forget to button my shirt might have been sexy, but I don't think that's his thing.

It wasn't a major hindrance to sex in the same way the baby was ;-), but I admit, I've never even thought of nursing has having sexual benefits.

So please, your Crunchness, explain it to me ;-)!

Sharon

One of my first jobs when I worked in the medical ...

2008-10-30T21:42:00.000-07:00

One of my first jobs when I worked in the medical field was helping brand-new mom's nurse their newborns. Having been a part of such a touching, emotional moment in so many lives, I know, regardless of how children enter my life in the future, I will try my darnedest to exclusively nurse him/her/them.

As far as contaminants go - I grew up in what I consider to be a fairly benign environment (I think if there is any chemical at high levels in my system, it's chlorine - from being a swimmer for more than a decade), so I hope that what I will offer my child(ren) will be pure enough - like Kaat said, if I try to minimize the toxins I accumulate and the ones my children do, then my grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and so-forth will all be better off than I am...
Unless there is a radical change in energy usage, the environmental impact of large-scale farming, and our understanding of the (ever-changing) content of breast milk, I don't think I could choose formula as the "less polluted" option; although, if I didn't have an option - that is, if for whatever reason, I was unable to provide breast milk for my child(ren) - I would certainly provide formula for him/her/them.

As for the "sexualization of lactation" - this is where I could totally get on a soap box, so I'll try to rein it in... I think this issue is much deeper than a "nursing in public," or a mother choosing to feed breast milk or formula. I think this issue is inclusive of many other aspects of our "culture." I've noticed young girls', tweens', teens', and other women's clothing is becoming more and more risque as time goes on - it's actually somewhat challenging to find clothing that will not only meet, say, middle school dress code, and still look "cool" (Can you tell I've had to have the 'that skirt/shirt/those shorts are too short' conversation a few times?), BUT, that doesn't mean that the schools (or workplaces) need to revamp their dress codes! Just like most change, we need to be responsible for changing what is acceptable - a grassroots movement of acceptable dress. Okay, so that's a little drastic, but the point is that society is not going to change, we have to start the change. If women are being turned into sex objects by "fashion," then, it's hard to separate what is "fashion" (cleavage, lots of skin, etc.) and what is (for lack of a better word) "utilitarian" (an accidental public view of skin that's not normally shown). For that matter, if a woman is turned into a sex object by "fashion," and then chooses to nurse her child - does she have her roles mixed up?

Okay, I realize I'm not making a clear, concise point, but I think it's something to the extent that if women's breasts are going to be a fashion accessory, it's hard for people to see them used as something else, and for us to change that, we might have to help folks realize that they are as much of a fashion accessory as that stainless steel coffee tumbler I carry around.

--Erika

Also, I think the racial/class dynamics of wetnurs...

2008-10-30T20:08:00.000-07:00

Also, I think the racial/class dynamics of wetnursing would be problematic. They certainly have been in the past.

We don't need upper-class women working more hours to make the money to rent a poorer woman's body. We need workplaces and lives that support family life, including breastfeeding.

I just didn't find nursing erotic at all. The ...

2008-10-30T20:04:00.000-07:00

I just didn't find nursing erotic at all. The amount of touch I was getting from my newborn actually made me pretty touch-averse for a long time (also: c-section recovery & getting my body back after bed rest & recovery from the damage I took in pregnancy).

Other people have told me they find it erotic but it just made me not want anyone to touch my tits right at the moment my partner was *really* into them.

Homebody- :But wet nursing and pump and dump for c...

2008-10-30T19:11:00.000-07:00

Homebody- :But wet nursing and pump and dump for chemicals that may or may not be in the breastmilk? That's really extreme..."

Nope, really didn't suggest that, and wouldn't. What I said was a woman whose milk TESTED TOO HIGH for the various toxins- which are not a joke, of any kind, might use this option.

The toxins in the milk are serious; don't blow off the idea because you're wedded to breast feeding; read the rest of my comments here.

A woman raised in a toxic environment stores the poisons for decades- and concentrates them in the breast milk; which is the ONLY way these toxins ever leave the body. And feeds them to an infant, which is at the most vulnerable point of its life, regarding damage from chemical insult. Your looking at greatly increasing the threat of cancer, later in life, for the child.

There's no doubt- for the majority of women; all this is NOT an issue of much, or any, importance. But for some, it is- and any other options would be important.

I want to add that my comment about faith in the f...

2008-10-30T19:04:00.000-07:00

I want to add that my comment about faith in the future and excuses from the past only has to do with the oft-spoken excuse "it's too late anyway" when it comes to pollutants in BM.
I wasn't commenting on other reasons for not breastfeeding, many of which are understandable and anyway the mom's own business.
Just wanted to make that clear.

I read Sandra Steingraber's book Having Faith be...

2008-10-30T18:58:00.000-07:00

I read Sandra Steingraber's book *Having Faith* before getting pregnant with my daughter. I immediately stopped eating junk food, food with preservatives, colorants, growth hormones, and went off the Tylenol and what have you...

I often got the remark that it's too late anyway, that I and my milk are contaminated. But someone has to start breaking down that cycle!

Breastfeeding my daughter was an act of faith on my part, faith in my body and in the future. We are raising Amie "organically" and she will be stronger in turn, and *her* milk will be purer.

When you do such things out of faith in the future, it's simply time to cut out finding excuses in the past. So it is with how one eats, how much one consumes, and whether one breastfeeds one's children.

Book Tag
http://journeysofcactusjack.blogspot.c...

2008-10-30T18:47:00.000-07:00

Book Tag
http://journeysofcactusjack.blogspot.com/

So I am sitting here typing while nursing my 2 yea...

2008-10-30T18:07:00.000-07:00

So I am sitting here typing while nursing my 2 year old to sleep. His big sis weaned at 31 months, I was very pregnant at the time and she told me the milk tasted yucky. After E was born, she would latch on again every few weeks or so for a swallow or two, but she just lost interest sometime between 3 and 4. Both my kids have food sensitivities, my son's are numerous and severe. I am so glad I breastfeed as both my children would have severe medical problems had they been on formula.

I DO want to comment on the wet nursing. :) While it sounds good on paper, sorta, it is not going to work. The biology of breastfeeding is the problem. See, the milk supply is established in those first weeks and months. And there is not a pump in the world that will stimulate supply the way a properly feeding baby will. So you risk dooming a child to formula due to lack of supply on the mother's part. I could nurse the BLOCK when it comes to milk supply, but I struggle to pump, no matter what kind of pump. There are LOTS of women like that.

Other problems:
- The baby may not latch onto the wet nurse.
- Conversely, baby may not nurse from Mom if the wet nurse is all baby knows.
- You further medicalize birth by taking baby away from the mother to the wet nurse, and handing mother a cold plastic pump early post partum.
- Baby will not get colostrum, which transitions to mature milk over several weeks. Colostrum is NOT something babies should miss out on.
- Milk changes over the course of nursing. The milk produced for very young infants by Mom is different than that which would be supplied by a wet nurse who had hopefully weaned her own children already.
- Babies with food sensitivities would require a wet nurse willing to radically modify her diet.
- WHO PAYS?

Now, I think wet nursing or milk donation are great things in some situations. I am a milk donor myself. And I would love to see the day when EVERY infant could have breastmilk, because nursing was nearly universal and those that could not for whatever reason had access to donor milk. Where formula was a product for the extremely rare baby with the couple of rare genetic disorders that make breastmilk indigestible.

But wet nursing and pump and dump for chemicals that may or may not be in the breastmilk? That's really extreme...

-A

I had two children 23 months apart. I tandem nurs...

2008-10-30T17:28:00.000-07:00

I had two children 23 months apart. I tandem nursed for a year (until the elder was almost exactly 3) and nursed the younger until he was 3 1/2 years old.

There may be pollutants in the milk, but they will be exposed to them in the air, in the water, in other foods...There are too many benefits to be outweighed by this.