Comments on Crunchy Chicken: Grass fed beef and methane

I like what Kiashu said. I say eat less or no mea...

2009-06-02T23:55:30.776-07:00

I like what Kiashu said. I say eat less or no meat, fish, definitely no dairy and little or no eggs if you want to be avoid western diseases. Oh, also no white bread, white rice, white sugar...Hey people, you can certainly think and do whatever you want. It's your life. Read The China Study and be blown away. Get it and read it. Forget all the crap you've been told by great marketing. Forget what you doctor tells you (unless he/she is telling you to eat a whole foods, plant-based diet). We have been brainwashed into eating disease causing food. Wake up! Read the book. The China Study. The China Study.

With cap and trade, the price for the free range c...

2009-05-09T10:52:00.000-07:00

With cap and trade, the price for the free range cattle will be taxed more and those ranchers will go out business leaving the low cost producers. The free range cattle will not have any range to eat because of cellulose ethanol. That takes away a cheap forage for the free range cattle.

What an informative post! It can be so difficult t...

2009-04-21T15:05:00.000-07:00

What an informative post! It can be so difficult to learn legitimate and practical green solutions because of how many misconceptions there are surrounding conservation. Check out our myth-busting video “What’s Your Big Green Lie?!” which gives a taste of the widespread ignorance of green issues at http://www.biggreenlies.com.

Since we began eating only local meat, we eat by t...

2009-04-15T11:08:00.000-07:00

Since we began eating only local meat, we eat by the "Sunday Roast" method- whatever meat we eat all week is first our main meal on Sunday, and appears during the week in a variety of "flavoring" ways.

I came from a family of vegetarians, was one for a number of years. I decided that if I was going to eat meat, it was my responsibility to ensure it was sustainably and humanely raised. This means we eat less. We waste nothing, out of respect for the animal sacrifice that put the meat on our table.
An interesting thought- should the world become vegan, wouldn't that mean the extinction of domestic animals like cows, chickens, goats, etc?

Willa

One option is to switch to wild meat and in partic...

2009-04-14T22:46:00.000-07:00

One option is to switch to wild meat and in particulat non-ruminants which produce very little greenhouse gases. I recently made the switch to Kangaroo instead of other red meats because of its reduced ecological impact. I may one day try wild rabbit or wild goat.

This is actually quite funny, since cows rarely fa...

2009-04-13T13:07:00.000-07:00

This is actually quite funny, since cows rarely fart - they burp while ruminating. Horse fart all the time and hardly ever burp...

Really interesting comments.

Personally, I...

2009-04-12T22:39:00.000-07:00

Really interesting comments.

Personally, I have found that as I improve my diet and include more nutrient dense food and eschew processed, nutrient-poor foods, I crave less meat. Without really trying, we have gone from fairly typical meat consumption to about 25% of the American average.

If more Americans ate seasonal fruits and vegetables, picked at the height of ripeness, I'll bet that they would naturally eat less meat.

Segwyne writes,

"I am glad you be...

2009-04-12T19:03:00.000-07:00
Segwyne writes,

"I am glad you believe some meat eating is good for the environment."

I didn't say that. I said that eating around one-tenth what the average Aussie/American eats is probably not harmful to the environment.

There's a difference between "good for you" and "probably does no harm."

Segwyne goes on, "I cannot support a vegan diet because I believe it is unhealthy."

The first thing I think of when you say you have to eat meat for your health is the old fellow with the bottle of "medicinal" whiskey. *Gulp* "Aaah... it's just for me health, I tell ye, purely medicinal." Yeah, okay :)

If meat-eating were necessary to health, then vegan bodybuilders would all drop dead. And yet they don't. There they are, pumped up and happy.

Diets are not healthy or unhealthy simply by virtue of whether you have meat or animal products in them or not. What matters is to have a wide mix of foods.

Have a look at this excerpt from a book, What the world eats. It's got photos of families from around the world with a week's food.

What you notice is that as the wealth of the country or family rises, families first add fizzy drinks, next more meat, and lastly more food in colourful plastic packets.

You'll see a great variety of diets, with all the families apparently more or less healthy and happy. The human body is very resilient, it can adapt to all sorts of different foods in different amounts.

A vegan who ate only lentils would die. A meat-eater who ate only steak would also die. What's important to health is to eat a variety of foods.

In considering whether to eat meat, or how much to eat, there are many things to think of,

- environment
- animal welfare & ethics
- $ cost to you
- taste/appetite - probably shouldn't even be considered, because this can change so easily
- health

You can argue about the relative importance of the first three. For example, if you believe it's wrong to kill animals to eat, then that's that - none of the rest matter. So the first three you can shuffle around a bit according to what's important to you.

But unless you have some particular health condition affecting your diet, then health comes dead last, simply because as I said the human body is quite resilient.

You can present us with all the fancy books you like with science supporting this or that diet, and we can counter with more. But the fact is that billions of people live on entirely different diets, so it must be possible. The human body must be resilient.

Rosa, one thing about those of us who get our beef...

2009-04-11T15:52:00.000-07:00
Rosa, one thing about those of us who get our beef by the full steer - we DO use pretty much the entire beast, and the cost is lower than grocery store costs. But while it's tasty you DO have to deal with the pastured and grass-finished steer often being really really tough.

Fern

Wow, Kiashu. Thanks for the numbers. I didn't kn...

2009-04-11T07:15:00.000-07:00
Wow, Kiashu. Thanks for the numbers. I didn't know that. I am glad you believe some meat eating is good for the environment. I subscribe to the belief that humans are at their healthiest when they consume animal products. I haven't decided yet whether optimal health can be achieved without any meat, i.e. just butter, milk, eggs, etc. I was convinced by reading chapters of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston Price. Yes, I know, people either love his work or hate it. I have not read the entire book, just chapters, but what I have read is amazing. I cannot support a vegan diet because I believe it is unhealthy. I think (but am not positive) that the medical profession has determined that a baby cannot thrive on a vegan diet, either. Alas, I am still working my family over on the concept of meatless dinners. One meatless dinner and some lunches each week is a great improvement over what we did eat.

I guess it all boils down that old saying, "Moderation in all things."

love this blog!!!!!!

2009-04-11T06:44:00.000-07:00
love this blog!!!!!!

Segwyne asks, "How about our own human f...

2009-04-10T18:11:00.000-07:00
Segwyne asks, "How about our own human farts?"

Human farts are 10-30% carbon dioxide, and 0-10% methane; the rest are not greenhouse gases. Let's be pessimistic and assume the highest proportions - 30% carbon dioxide and 10% methane. We pass 200-2,000ml of gases daily. Again let's be pessimistic, 2,000ml.

This gives us then 600ml of carbon dioxide and 200ml of methane. CO2 has a density of 1.98g/l as a gas, and CH4 0.717g/l. So we can see that each day people pass at most 1.188g CO2, and 0.1434g CH4.

However, methane is 23 times as strong a greenhouse gas as carbon dioxide, so the 0.1434g CH4 is equivalent to 3.298g CO2. Together, 4.486g CO2e/day.

Over a year of 365 days, this is 1,637g. 1.64kg - 3.6lbs for you Americans.

By comparison, dairy cattle create 587l of CH4 and 6,137l CO2 each daily, which all comes to 7,968kg (17,593lbs) carbon dioxide equivalent annually.

That is, the average dairy cow produces around five thousand times as much greenhouse gases from its farts and burps as the fartiest human.

So, you can reasonably worry about the farts of five thousand people, or one cow.

Of course, we humans are very creative and have discovered ways to create greenhouse gas emissions without having to do all that farting. We just burn lots of stuff. Woohoo!

e4 writes,

"Cows have been farting since before they were called cows. They've also been grazing and trampling pasture that long."

Indeed they have. But not in such numbers as today. We have a bit under a billion cattle in the world.

Considering all livestock, in 1961 we had 2,292 million cattle, sheep and goats, in 2006 3,322 million.

Considering fish, in 1950 we caught 18.7 million tonnes (7.4kg per person annually), in 2005 93.3 million tonnes (14.3kg).

While livestock and fish have always existed and always had an impact, we're consuming more and more of them. To say, "but they've always been around, so what?" is like saying, "Well debt has always been around, so why do we have an economic crisis now?" The crisis comes not from the thing itself, but the huge amounts of the thing.

Another point is that farts and burps are not the only causes of emissions from livestock; their manure rots down into the soil and releases nitrous oxide, which is a strong greenhouse gas (around 8% of global greenhouse gas emissions are from it, about half from animal manure and half from artificial fertiliser), and when it gets into waterways causes "dead zones" from algae. See for example the Gulf of Texas.

Carrick complemented my turn of phrase, and talked about going vegan. Morally I cannot fault that.

But from a purely environmental perspective, a mixed farm with both animals and a variety of plants, this makes most efficient use of the Earth's resources, and causes the least impact. If you just have a field of grain you probably have to use artificial fertiliser; if you rotate with livestock you have natural fertiliser.

So a farm with animals is environmentally better than one without; and if you have animals, they will breed and you will have to kill some of them. If you're killing them you may as well eat them.

Now, this approach means much less meat-eating than we do in Australia and the US - about one-tenth. The "Sunday roast" is a family occasion for a reason - it's the first time you cook meat that week! It's a luxury, not a staple.

In terms of animal welfare and basic ethics, I cannot fault veganism. But in terms of caring for the environment balanced with animal welfare concerns, eating a small amount of meat is best.

How come nobody asks whether chickens or fish fart...

2009-04-10T14:10:00.000-07:00
How come nobody asks whether chickens or fish fart? Or bees? Poor cows.

@farmer's daughter wrote "After all, those abused ...

2009-04-09T23:51:00.000-07:00
@farmer's daughter wrote "After all, those abused cows are part of the biosphere."

Amen!

Everything is connected, isn't it?

You had fun writing about farts, didn't you Crunchy?

Let's just not eat cows then.

2009-04-09T21:16:00.000-07:00
Let's just not eat cows then.

Seems to me however you look at it the cow loses i...

2009-04-09T14:00:00.000-07:00
Seems to me however you look at it the cow loses in the end.

When in college, I went the recruitment rounds for...

2009-04-09T13:35:00.000-07:00
When in college, I went the recruitment rounds for medical studies. One study was looking for humans who were methane producers - they actually said that 25-30% of the human population produce methane as a biproduct of their digestion. (The study was too rigorous for me to participate in, fyi)

Whether we eat meat or not, humans do produce methane. Whether we stop eating or even growing cows will not stop the methane production.
As an individual, I'll reduce or remove meat from my diet, and hope that my personal methane production doesn't tip the balance for the planet.

Here's the link to Sharon's post: Eating Animal Products Ethically. I haven't read it all yet, due to the length, but from briefly looking over it, it looks like another good one. Go check it out!

Not to plug another blog on this one, but Sharon A...

2009-04-09T13:27:00.000-07:00
Not to plug another blog on this one, but Sharon Astyk has a very good post from a day or so ago with a lot of information on this subject on her Casaubon's Book blog. Be sure to read the comments, as there are some opinions from a couple of farmers who are doing grass fed beef and dairy.

BP

My perspective is that when I hear about scientifi...

2009-04-09T12:00:00.000-07:00
My perspective is that when I hear about scientific evidence pointing to one vs another, I don't get caught up in the mantra.
I do actually review data before stating one or another- it's important to know where your information is coming from to sort through fact from badly done science.
From the comments here- it would seem a lot of people took your comments to heart- most of your posts are very well done and researched. I was just disappointed with this one.

Anonymous Bee - Yes, the same issue exists with da...

2009-04-09T11:04:00.000-07:00
Anonymous Bee - Yes, the same issue exists with dairy cows, I just didn't make the distinction since most articles/studies refer to beef cattle, not dairy.

Eco Yogini - Talk about throwing the baby out with...

2009-04-09T10:56:00.000-07:00
Eco Yogini - Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. This wasn't the only article that has quoted that grass fed beef has higher methane output than grain/corn fed beef. You can read more here and a quick Google search will turn up more for you as well.

And I'm not the only one quoting from this Science News article either. Feel free to comment to Mark Bittman of the NY Times as well. I'm not sure why you are expecting me to review all the scientific data anymore than the next person. I'm presenting the information, not defending it.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make in my post is that there is conflicting evidence and that the mantra that I keep hearing of late, that is: "grass fed beef is worse than grain fed beef", was contradicted in the Mother Earth News article. In other words, I was hoping to let people know not to get caught up in the mantra. There are more variables to consider.

"Since you're not likely to be really sure just ho...

2009-04-09T10:26:00.000-07:00
"Since you're not likely to be really sure just how much that cow farted before someone put captive bolt gun against its head, it's easier to just eat less."

Lol. Best sentence ever. ;-)

I'm not a huge meat eater, but had written off going vegan as unnecessary. But since I've lately been gradually convinced of the negative impact of the production of meat, I'm thinking of giving it a shot.

Interesting post (and comments).

We've tal...

2009-04-09T09:51:00.000-07:00
Interesting post (and comments).

We've talked about vegetarianism and it's benefit of adopting a diet that is meat-free (or, minimally, low in meat).

Not only does it benefit the environment, but your health, also (think of the new study showing the risks of red meat eaters and heart disease, cancer, and mortality).

Thanks for the post.

Well- I think the main problem you have here is th...

2009-04-09T09:45:00.000-07:00
Well- I think the main problem you have here is that Crunchy; you didn't actually try to investigate the research. Depending on a "Science News" media coverage of a Conference Presentation.
When you delve deeper- Nathan Pelletier was actually giving a Presentation at AAAS: American Association of the Advancement of Sciences Annual Meeting.
So- NOT an actual study- just an interview with Nathan regarding his "teams" research findings in the past.
First cue when quoting "scientific" data- read the article yourself. If you can't determine the methods or efficacy of research, then don't comment.
Having access to Dal's journal database I thought I'd try and see exactly what research (without actually having access to Mr Pelletier's ppt presentation) he based his comments on.
Unfortunately Mr Pelletier's published studies focus on Aquaculture and NOT specifically agriculture. which makes more sense for Nova Scotia.

A little deeper and we find out that Mr Pelletier is actually a PhD student... and not a professor or PhD researcher at Dalhousie. His presentation has to do with NSSRC, which is a Canadian organization that grants scholarships to PhD and Master's students to do research. In return- they are typically required to give presentations.

It would seem that there are some pretty interesting research articles regarding corn/soy/grain carbon and energy costs comparing organic farming to traditional farming, but nothing specific to cows. Here's a prof's page with some of his co-articles attached:

http://sres.management.dal.ca/People/Faculty/Tyedmers.php

Usually these types of conferences and presentations are precursors to research that the individual is trying to get published or in the process of publishing. Without actually having access to his ppt, there is no way of knowing exactly what he is basing his comments on. Also- I tend to avoid "science" based media coverage- they tend to skew researchers comments and give misleading interpretations of scientific results.

I think this was a little much.

Comments on Crunchy Chicken: Grass fed beef and methane

I like what Kiashu said. I say eat less or no mea...

With cap and trade, the price for the free range c...

What an informative post! It can be so difficult t...

Since we began eating only local meat, we eat by t...

One option is to switch to wild meat and in partic...

This is actually quite funny, since cows rarely fa...

Really interesting comments. Personally, I...

Segwyne writes,"I am glad you be...

Rosa, one thing about those of us who get our beef...

Wow, Kiashu. Thanks for the numbers. I didn't kn...

love this blog!!!!!!

Segwyne asks, "How about our own human f...

How come nobody asks whether chickens or fish fart...

@farmer's daughter wrote "After all, those abused ...

Let's just not eat cows then.

Seems to me however you look at it the cow loses i...

When in college, I went the recruitment rounds for...

Here's the link to Sharon's post: Eating Animal Products Ethically. I haven't read it all yet, due to the length, but from briefly looking over it, it looks like another good one. Go check it out!

Not to plug another blog on this one, but Sharon A...

My perspective is that when I hear about scientifi...

Anonymous Bee - Yes, the same issue exists with da...

Eco Yogini - Talk about throwing the baby out with...

"Since you're not likely to be really sure just ho...

Interesting post (and comments). We've tal...

Well- I think the main problem you have here is th...

Really interesting comments.

Personally, I...

Segwyne writes,

"I am glad you be...

Interesting post (and comments).

We've tal...