tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post3262535855388231408..comments2024-03-26T00:14:00.509-07:00Comments on Crunchy Chicken: Depletion & Abundance discussion post - Part TwoUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-84637748215818002182008-12-04T20:56:00.000-08:002008-12-04T20:56:00.000-08:00Excellent blog Crunchy! The moniker is great!Forg...Excellent blog Crunchy! The moniker is great!<BR/><BR/>Forgive my disjointed un-writing :)<BR/><BR/>I'll admit, that my take on this, is colored by the various forces moving through the "real" economy.<BR/><BR/>It seems in my reading on this post, that there are unidentified semantic errors with this discussion.<BR/><BR/>Crunchy, your critique supposes that what you have identified and Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10395895156134779016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-87056961521254338302008-11-20T05:35:00.000-08:002008-11-20T05:35:00.000-08:00Radical was my first impression of the book. The ...Radical was my first impression of the book. The majority of people will NOT live the way Sharon suggests -- or even try. But now that a few weeks have past, the concept of the book is taking over and sinking in considerably and I think others will find themselves doing the same thing. Cost savings, conserving fuel consumption (or eliminating?),living more within our needs and avoiding Chilihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12242725377650947329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-56938637944221377542008-11-14T10:24:00.000-08:002008-11-14T10:24:00.000-08:00I've not read the book (though I do read Sharon's ...I've not read the book (though I do read Sharon's blog so I'm familiar with her economic thinking) but I want to chime in with some comments.<BR/><BR/>re: informal economy- I know of no one that doesn't participate in some way and a majority of my friends participate in large ways. We trade and barter for everything from clothing, cloth, food, babysitting, household goods and more. If I weren'tComposedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11535016938108409343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-20380553586699544722008-11-14T09:40:00.000-08:002008-11-14T09:40:00.000-08:00I'm halfway into Sharon's book and don't feel at a...I'm halfway into Sharon's book and don't feel at all depressed - but really motivated and energized. I think her description of Pat Meadow's "Theory of Anyway" - that this is all stuff we should be doing anyway for the good or our children and grandchildren helped put it in context. As the title states, this is a book about both the downside (depletion) and the upside (abundance) - how the loss Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-17978453926265055302008-11-13T20:05:00.000-08:002008-11-13T20:05:00.000-08:00I've nearly always been poor so it won't be anythi...I've nearly always been poor so it won't be anything new. We pay our way with whatever work we can and are thankful for free health and education.<BR/><BR/>We do own our house and that saves rent which is expensive round here.<BR/><BR/>I've always wondered what it would be like not to have to count the pennies and just to spend whatever but we've never been in that position and not likely to be.knutty knitterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00325560883289908412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-81471402134374188482008-11-13T09:29:00.000-08:002008-11-13T09:29:00.000-08:00I just finished reading Depletion and Abundance an...I just finished reading Depletion and Abundance and really appreciated the holistic and big picture view of what may be coming. <BR/><BR/>I have a natural interest in gardening and cooking so that part doesn't scare me. It's mainly the fear of losing our income from the formal economy and of course health insurance. At some point I will probably need to have heart surgery to fix a valve problemAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-89018551325654697372008-11-13T08:23:00.000-08:002008-11-13T08:23:00.000-08:00What a great discussion! I finished the book a few...What a great discussion! I finished the book a few weeks ago and thought it was interesting. I have some friends who are also preparing for the worst case scenario. I don't think it's going to happen and if it does I think a lot of their preparations will be for naught. <BR/><BR/>The reason why is that there are some wacky people out there with lots of guns who would overrun their Utopian urban Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-3354810731378773602008-11-13T02:37:00.000-08:002008-11-13T02:37:00.000-08:00I am a SAHM who participates alot in the informal ...I am a SAHM who participates alot in the informal economy. Bartering services and products. babysitting, baking, tutoring etc. If I weren't into the informal economy my hubbys paycheck wouldn't go so far in the formal economy. We grow alot of our own food, make most of our basic stuff and alot of what I use to make our basics comes from the informal economy. <BR/><BR/>In our area the economyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-57468732433350448132008-11-12T17:28:00.000-08:002008-11-12T17:28:00.000-08:00These ideas make no sense at all.The real economy ...These ideas make no sense at all.<BR/><BR/>The real economy is the people growing food. Once people can grow enough food to feed strangers, the strangers are freed up to do other stuff. <BR/><BR/>That other stuff consists of services such as healthcare, law, religion, baby-sitting, etc. and the production of widgets.<BR/><BR/>The non-food producers can now trade their wares in return for food. <nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13841445502443936917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-59619593727066861942008-11-12T17:15:00.000-08:002008-11-12T17:15:00.000-08:00I know plenty of people who participate in informa...I know plenty of people who participate in informal economy, if at least partly. My sister is a nanny (under the table) and as a server gets more in tips than in a formal paycheck. Most of my adult immigrant students are babysitters under the table. Many of their husbands are construction workers, under the table. I do tutoring, under the table. My friend is not authorized to work here, so she Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-81151616445300536992008-11-12T15:53:00.000-08:002008-11-12T15:53:00.000-08:00What I took from Sharon's book regarding the infor...What I took from Sharon's book regarding the informal economy was that it would be wise to expand ones' involvment in it now, when the formal economy is still intact-ish. This will make the transition easier as some of the formal things start to unwind. The main thing I took from it was that the informal economy is actually a way to build community sentiment, such that people are more inclined Theresahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03908227916944431265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-30487668357096736472008-11-12T15:21:00.000-08:002008-11-12T15:21:00.000-08:00Interesting debate. I don't think it should be a m...Interesting debate. I don't think it should be a matter of formal versus informal rather its about shifting the balance. Like our water supply and electricity, dependency on state provision is highly risky. We need distributed systems - both state run AND individual collection of water, electricity and income generation. This way we spread the risk. Many people these days would have no idea how Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-9558649174926062542008-11-12T14:10:00.000-08:002008-11-12T14:10:00.000-08:00I think informal housing is going to be the rule f...I think informal housing is going to be the rule for a while for a lot of people. We have so many foreclosed and/or condemned houses in my neighborhood. A lot of multi-units foreclosed because the landlord got behind on the mortgage. All of those people are going somewhere - shelters, relatives, friends.<BR/> <BR/>Last time this happened in my neighborhood (late '80s), a lot of those houses were Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-65685844875175472772008-11-12T13:33:00.000-08:002008-11-12T13:33:00.000-08:00Actually, I think what's coming could be summed up...Actually, I think what's coming could be summed up as<BR/><BR/>Informal Economy = Black Market.<BR/><BR/>MEAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-19011234297634030892008-11-12T12:45:00.000-08:002008-11-12T12:45:00.000-08:00Sharon - I'm assuming that Howarth's estimate of h...Sharon - I'm assuming that Howarth's estimate of how long serfs worked to pay off their dues to the landholder is accurate, but in your estimate you didn't include the work they needed to do in addition to that. <BR/><BR/>For example, how much time was spent growing their own food, mending and repairing their tools, cooking, cleaning, etc. I don't have the book in front of me, but it seems like Crunchy Chickenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10612320939936593420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-24894537979743023122008-11-12T12:14:00.000-08:002008-11-12T12:14:00.000-08:00As I wrote about in my review of Sharon's book, my...As I wrote about in my review of Sharon's book, my husband and I both have feet in the informal economy. I trade labor on my family's farm for groceries from our farm market and my husband does odd jobs for cash or trades things with friend (he'll let them borrow our wood splitter if we can get some of their wood, we'll split and stack it if we can take half, etc.). I could also tutor as part Farmer's Daughterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04993260095409544097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-79682163096237232222008-11-12T11:24:00.000-08:002008-11-12T11:24:00.000-08:00Good to read another perspective on Sharon's book....Good to read another perspective on Sharon's book. I think if a couple is used to a 2-income lifestyle, where they have to pay other people to do and make a lot of things for them, learning the skills of the informal economy would be wise. <BR/><BR/>Scenario: Say the wife loses her job, and the husband gets a pretty large paycut, so they have to survive on less than half their previous Peak Oil Hausfrauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10474901509039914502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-80081075387937706272008-11-12T08:55:00.000-08:002008-11-12T08:55:00.000-08:00I have a clearner 2x a month for 4 hours, and it m...I have a clearner 2x a month for 4 hours, and it makes a great difference to my life. However, I can't say that I think what she is going (preventing my family dying from typhoid or me being even more sleep deprived and nut-bar) is less important than the work I do at the public library. I feel liberatated to sleep a bit more (and to not have to vaccumm with dd the younder firmly in tow as she Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-59975949165266118442008-11-12T08:34:00.000-08:002008-11-12T08:34:00.000-08:00I think (and now I'm in this argument here and at ...I think (and now I'm in this argument here and at Sharon's blog) that we need both formal and informal work, partly because the two economies don't boom and bust on the same schedule, so a family is most secure with one foot in each. And for myself, I need both because it preserves options in the face of an always-changing present.<BR/> <BR/>But one thing to remember is that the ability of Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-41314894426997948982008-11-12T07:29:00.000-08:002008-11-12T07:29:00.000-08:00I agree with Lisaz in that, Crunchy, I think many ...I agree with Lisaz in that, Crunchy, I think many more folks look like you than Sharon. Most of us do not live an ancient farm surrounded by acres of land. Many of us choose to send our children to school rather than homeschool. Many work outside the home, etc.<BR/><BR/>I did enjoy these chapters, though, in that I can see the informal economy becoming a bit more helpful in tough economic Green Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133847111288382381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-62988407666894612222008-11-12T07:22:00.000-08:002008-11-12T07:22:00.000-08:00I'm enjoying the discussion. I've not been a very ...I'm enjoying the discussion. I've not been a very big part of the informal economy to this point. What I'd like to comment on is that women in particular seem to be assumed to be willing to be part of this informal economy by default. Soon after I started my Usborne book business I noticed that women just expect me to do things for them for nothing. Maybe this is part of the deal of women in Alison Kerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00732023012497108509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-31660743239473057042008-11-12T06:37:00.000-08:002008-11-12T06:37:00.000-08:00TSHTF a long time ago in my life, and I have been ...TSHTF a long time ago in my life, and I have been part of the informal economy for a long time, even through I have a college education and the skills to work for The Man. I supported myself with a bootstrapped flea market tie-dye biz when my first child was born, then a bootstrapped paint contracting biz, then a bootstrapped web technology biz. I am now heading into bootstrapped green Matriarchyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11626790347402266263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-19678477188002687572008-11-12T06:33:00.000-08:002008-11-12T06:33:00.000-08:00We are trying to get ourselves to the point where ...We are trying to get ourselves to the point where if our jobs (at this point just my husband's; I used to work part time but now am home full time again) no longer exist, we will be able to keep our home and feed ourselves (the most important things we can do, after all). Maybe we shouldn't "aim" for that happening, and we're not, but it sure looks like it could possibly happen in the not too Lisa Zahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17491596171533559615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-38002501620841940372008-11-12T06:09:00.000-08:002008-11-12T06:09:00.000-08:00I don't know how we'd stay in our house or do much...I don't know how we'd stay in our house or do much of anything without our rather nice jobs. <BR/><BR/>Not to over state what we earn, but I marvel at what we make compaired to what a couple of folks working minimum wage would earn. <BR/><BR/>We do everything we can to be a part of an informal economy - we grow at least 50% of our vegies, eat beans and rice, buy beef and milk from friends, Conniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06717388726735528462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1542806651392353413.post-67855463230737545532008-11-12T05:52:00.000-08:002008-11-12T05:52:00.000-08:00I rather thought that Sharon's point was that *by*...I rather thought that Sharon's point was that *by* doing the tasks that are part of the informal economy (growing our own food, trading childcare with family and friends) we can become less dependent on the formal economy. Therefore, WTSHTF, we will be able to feed ourselves, and if we do have employment outside the home, we will still be able to go to our jobs, because we will have informal but Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14894152513746944497noreply@blogger.com